4.2 Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

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Re: 4.0.3a Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby yappo » Mon Feb 07, 2011 9:30 am

Biggby wrote:OK, nevermind. I just did some digging and found the formulas comparing dodge/parry to mastery. I clearly need to reforge some of my dodge and parry into mastery. I'm over 12% in both of those. I think I can figure this stuff out by reading the formulas a few times and playing with the numbers. Thanks for getting me started! Feel like I'm finally starting to understand this stuff.

So, just to be sure -- I shouldn't compare dodge/parry to mastery. It's not really a matter of one versus the other. Dodge/Parry are good up to about 10%. I should try to maintain those two numbers at 10% and get anything above that reforged into mastery. Sound right? Sorry to wander off topic. On the plus side, I'm reforging and equipping that ring as soon as I get home tonight!


Not really. A full 30% avoidance seems to be where we end up (pre hardmode gear), 5% miss, 12% dodge and 13% parry. If your gear comes with a high threat stat then it's generally beter to reforge that into mastery. If your gear comes with dodge AND parry, you're either unlucky or haven't geared in the correct item out of the ones you have in your bags. If unlucky, you should indeed reforge one of the stats into mastery.
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Re: 4.0.3a Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby Digren » Mon Feb 07, 2011 9:41 am

theckhd wrote:I'm not suggesting there isn't a target, but rather that the target will be different for a stage 4 tank than a stage 5 tank. Lower stages should see a lower ratio (i.e. stamina more valuable) and higher stages should see a higher ratio. Writing up that post earlier today made me think that we should get Meloree involved for old time's sake and start working out ratios for the different enchanting/gemming options.

Indeed, as it was in Wrath. I admit that this will make my ranking system much harder to understand, but I can (and will) use different parameters for ranking each stage if necessary.

It may look confusing, though, because on the stage four list I might have item A over item B, and then when you go to the stage five list item B might be ranked above item A. I think that's a necessary side effect, though. Not everyone will be a stage five tank - and I create multiple lists (one per stage) instead of one big list so that I can serve the people who won't hit end stage.
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Re: 4.0.3a Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby Biggby » Mon Feb 07, 2011 9:46 am

Thanks Yappo, I'm gonna try again. I got the 10% number here:http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/forum/index.php?f=3&t=30236&p=627747&rb_v=viewtopic#p627737. What I hear you saying is that, while the 10% number might technically be true, my first priority is to reforge threat stats rather than dodge and parry. Most of the best pieces of gear will have one of those stats along with dodge or parry, so my dodge and parry percentages will naturally grow to 12 or 13%.
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Re: 4.0.3a Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby Digren » Mon Feb 07, 2011 9:48 am

Biggby wrote:So, just to be sure -- I shouldn't compare dodge/parry to mastery. It's not really a matter of one versus the other. Dodge/Parry are good up to about 10%. I should try to maintain those two numbers at 10% and get anything above that reforged into mastery. Sound right? Sorry to wander off topic. On the plus side, I'm reforging and equipping that ring as soon as I get home tonight!

None of our stats really cap right now, so just concentrate on gearing to maximize each piece. That means getting A) the most mastery and/or stamina out of it (depending on how much stamina you want for the content you attempt), and B) the most avoidance possible after that.

On a piece with dodge/parry you should reforge the larger into mastery. On a piece with mastery/threat you should reforge the threat into either dodge or parry so as to attempt to make your raid-buffed dodge about 1% below your raid-buffed parry.

The only real exception to the "don't tune your overall gear" is for pieces with mastery/dodge or mastery/parry, which can be tuned by reforging dodge into parry or parry into dodge, whichever is necessary to hit that 1% dodge-parry difference.
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Re: 4.0.3a Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby econ21 » Mon Feb 07, 2011 9:51 am

Biggby wrote:So, just to be sure -- I shouldn't compare dodge/parry to mastery.


Well, you should compare - the question is by what metric: melee damage reduction (MDR) or combat table coverage (CTC)? For a comparable budget, mastery is flat out better by either metric. Hence always pick mastery+avoidance gear over 2x avoidance.

However, sometimes we have to make more tricky trade offs. In terms of MDR, mastery is somewhat better than avoidance; in terms of CTC it is dramatically better. I think this issue may start to bite when we compare mastery/threat gear with 2xavoidance gear. After reforging, MDR may tend to favour the latter; CTC the former. Opinions vary on which metric to use. I started off focusing on MDR, but as 102.4% starts to look attainable in the medium term, I tend to look more at CTC.
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Re: 4.0.3a Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby yappo » Mon Feb 07, 2011 9:58 am

econ21 wrote:
Biggby wrote:So, just to be sure -- I shouldn't compare dodge/parry to mastery.


Well, you should compare - the question is by what metric: melee damage reduction (MDR) or combat table coverage (CTC)? For a comparable budget, mastery is flat out better by either metric. Hence always pick mastery+avoidance gear over 2x avoidance.

However, sometimes we have to make more tricky trade offs. In terms of MDR, mastery is somewhat better than avoidance; in terms of CTC it is dramatically better. I think this issue may start to bite when we compare mastery/threat gear with 2xavoidance gear. After reforging, MDR may tend to favour the latter; CTC the former. Opinions vary on which metric to use. I started off focusing on MDR, but as 102.4% starts to look attainable in the medium term, I tend to look more at CTC.


And to make it even worse, when we start to climb really close to 102.4 (provided that we will do so at all) and even beyond, then healers will start to treat a tank with, say 101.4, as 1% crittable. After all, two minutes (average number taken from thin air) into the fight your steady stream of damage takens suddenly spikes with another 70% extra damage.
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Re: Tank Stage 5: Heroic Raider

Postby Velo » Mon Feb 07, 2011 11:53 am

Digren wrote:I passed on including the heroic Necklace of Strife because there's no indication on Wowhead that it drops. I previously had some data mined items on the list that don't exist in game, and I wanted to stay away from that. Does it exist, then?

It looks like I just missed the heroic Mistral Circles. I have the regular ones on my spreadsheet and on the stage four list, and they ranked pretty high. Not sure why I missed them other than that I was doing that bit at work at lunch and someone might have interrupted me. :D

Edit: Yeah the heroic Mistrals with mastery are pretty much tied with Dargonax's Signet for second place, so they'd make a good choice if your loot system would let you take them.


The [Necklace of Strife] does exist, this feral druid from Paragon has one:
http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/lightnings-blade/sejta/advanced
Assuming it exists then it would be our 2nd best neck before Caelestrasz's Will?

@Dirgen/Theck Thanks for the input on the rings. I would love to have Dargonax's Signet but I'm being more realistic to what our guild can progress with at the moment lol, so Mistrals work out much better.
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Re: 4.0.3a Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby Digren » Mon Feb 07, 2011 3:30 pm

yappo wrote:
econ21 wrote:
Biggby wrote:So, just to be sure -- I shouldn't compare dodge/parry to mastery.


Well, you should compare - the question is by what metric: melee damage reduction (MDR) or combat table coverage (CTC)? For a comparable budget, mastery is flat out better by either metric. Hence always pick mastery+avoidance gear over 2x avoidance.

However, sometimes we have to make more tricky trade offs. In terms of MDR, mastery is somewhat better than avoidance; in terms of CTC it is dramatically better. I think this issue may start to bite when we compare mastery/threat gear with 2xavoidance gear. After reforging, MDR may tend to favour the latter; CTC the former. Opinions vary on which metric to use. I started off focusing on MDR, but as 102.4% starts to look attainable in the medium term, I tend to look more at CTC.


And to make it even worse, when we start to climb really close to 102.4 (provided that we will do so at all) and even beyond, then healers will start to treat a tank with, say 101.4, as 1% crittable. After all, two minutes (average number taken from thin air) into the fight your steady stream of damage takens suddenly spikes with another 70% extra damage.

Yeah as soon as 102.4% seems reasonably attainable, I'll shed avoidance and stamina and whatever else is necessary to reach it. I think my natural tendency towards effective health will re-emerge.

That said - we still don't know how Blizzard plans to implement their stated goal for required ratings to vary from tier to tier at a constant level. Again - if T12 bosses are "higher" in some fashion - be that increased boss hit and expertise rating or some hidden tuning - then 102.4% may remain perpetually out of reach for all but the farmers of old content and stage five tanks finished with progression.
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Re: 4.0.3a Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby Cosain » Thu Feb 10, 2011 12:10 pm

I had a quick (I hope) question. I am currently iLvl 340 working my way through the stages... Now that the crafted BS armor have gem slots, how do they (specifically the chest piece) fit into the picture now? Does it move up on the "worthiness" list any?

Thanks for the response!
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Re: 4.0.3a Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby yappo » Thu Feb 10, 2011 1:25 pm

Cosain wrote:I had a quick (I hope) question. I am currently iLvl 340 working my way through the stages... Now that the crafted BS armor have gem slots, how do they (specifically the chest piece) fit into the picture now? Does it move up on the "worthiness" list any?

Thanks for the response!


Yes, the chest does, but not in the way we would have liked. The huge chunk of expertise on it is what makes it interesting for those fights where you (rightly or wrongly) feel you can't afford missing Crusader Strike. The gem-slot, and corresponding itemization change, makes it a little less bad overall than it was before.

The belt, however, got just even a little better from being very good before.
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Re: 4.0.3a Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby Cosain » Thu Feb 10, 2011 5:15 pm

Thanks! OK, as a follow-up... From a Stage 3 perspective, does this put either of the crafted breastplates above (Hardened or Deathplate) Chestplate of the Steadfast and Beauty's? If possible I would love to save the JP on Steadfast and avoid relying on RNG for Beauty's. That way I can concentrate on saving for the T11 chest.

Thanks again!
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Re: 4.0.3a Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby yappo » Fri Feb 11, 2011 2:20 am

Cosain wrote:Thanks! OK, as a follow-up... From a Stage 3 perspective, does this put either of the crafted breastplates above (Hardened or Deathplate) Chestplate of the Steadfast and Beauty's? If possible I would love to save the JP on Steadfast and avoid relying on RNG for Beauty's. That way I can concentrate on saving for the T11 chest.

Thanks again!


Assuming you're doing your daily random, well, daily, 'saving' JP really isn't an issue.

Theck will probably come up with some hard numbers after he's ceased steaming (he swapped from dumping numbers to venting frustrations in another thread in a way I've never seen before) about the unannounced change to HP-generation. Anyway, now when that change IS upon us, the crafted chest is no longer AS disgustingly horrible as it was before. The gem-slot, as I've stated earlier, mitigated this even further.

All in all my personal (key word 'personal') feeling is that if your gear-level has you making picks between the crafted chest and the JP one, then it's probably a toss-up right now.

As a comparision I've abstained from the crafted chest (and have since then amassed enough VP to shop the T11), but when I saw the BoE with hit-rating on the AH for 6k gold, I bought it immediately. While hit-rating is worse for handling HP-generation compared to expertise, I felt a bigger need of a tanking piece that once and for all fixed those fights where I risk having to handle interrupts while tanking. I still don't have the crafted chest, even though I am a BS and have learned the plan a long time ago.
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Re: 4.0.3a Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby Cosain » Fri Feb 11, 2011 8:33 am

Thanks for the help!
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Re: 4.0.3a Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby Dem » Fri Feb 11, 2011 5:33 pm

A lot of us have been managing on less than 3% hit to focus on damage mitigation whilst healers gear up. Even in 10 man, it's easily possible to assign dps to interrupts. Probably the most important fights for tank interrupts are Chogall (adds) and Maloriak. In both cases dps can interrupt and where they can't you have shield throw, hammer and now rebuke + arcane torrent if you're horde.

With this in mind hit rating still isn't critical if you're having survival problems and the tier chest and 4 set bonus is still very strong.
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Re: 4.0.6 Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby Cosain » Mon Feb 14, 2011 4:10 am

Sorry to be a pain. But I just picked up Shard of Pirouetting Happiness (http://us.battle.net/wow/en/item/68172) from the seasonal fight and reforged the Hit to Mastery. That gives it 168/252 Str/Stam along with 128 Dodge/51 Hit/34 Mastery. My question is... I now have enough justice points to get The Lustrous Eye but it seems to me that the seasonal drop is slightly better. It isn't on the list that I saw (prob due to the seasonal nature). Where does this neck fit in? Should I save the points for a diff piece?

Thanks for the help!
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Re: 4.0.6 Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby Håvard » Mon Feb 14, 2011 11:25 am

Hey, correct me if I'm wrong, but I haven't seen any mention here of the TB commendation axe added in 4.06:

[Darkheart Hacker]

Imo it seems to be a direct upgrade to the Twilight Highlands quest mace, and a logical next step for people who don't want to wait for particular drops.
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Re: 4.0.6 Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby Digren » Mon Feb 14, 2011 12:03 pm

Cosain wrote:Sorry to be a pain. But I just picked up Shard of Pirouetting Happiness (http://us.battle.net/wow/en/item/68172) from the seasonal fight and reforged the Hit to Mastery. That gives it 168/252 Str/Stam along with 128 Dodge/51 Hit/34 Mastery. My question is... I now have enough justice points to get The Lustrous Eye but it seems to me that the seasonal drop is slightly better. It isn't on the list that I saw (prob due to the seasonal nature). Where does this neck fit in? Should I save the points for a diff piece?

Thanks for the help!

Now that it drops I need to put it back on the list. It falls right around the Elementium Guardian or Mountain's Mouth - i.e. tied for second place.
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Re: 4.0.6 Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby Cosain » Mon Feb 14, 2011 2:35 pm

Thanks! I'll save my JP for the Chest then...
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Re: 4.0.3a Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby 99sitr » Mon Feb 14, 2011 4:20 pm

Dem wrote:A lot of us have been managing on less than 3% hit to focus on damage mitigation whilst healers gear up. Even in 10 man, it's easily possible to assign dps to interrupts. Probably the most important fights for tank interrupts are Chogall (adds) and Maloriak. In both cases dps can interrupt and where they can't you have shield throw, hammer and now rebuke + arcane torrent if you're horde.

With this in mind hit rating still isn't critical if you're having survival problems and the tier chest and 4 set bonus is still very strong.



If I recall correctly Hammer of Justice no longer interrupts npc's that are immune to stun. This was changed when Blizzard gave us Rebuke in 4.0.6.
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Re: 4.0.6 Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby th3m » Mon Feb 14, 2011 7:07 pm

Digren what do you think of Tia's Grace Trinket?

http://www.wowhead.com/item=56394

Provides good junk of mastery, and you have like constant 340 agility up.
I think it should be somewhere in the list :D
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Re: 4.0.6 Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby econ21 » Thu Feb 17, 2011 2:26 am

th3m wrote:Digren what do you think of Tia's Grace Trinket?


I am not Digren, but to chime in - I think it's a wonderful trinket. The 10 stacks of agility work out at around 1% dodge and as you say, in practice, they are effectively up all the time. It's very close to the best 346 trinket for melee damage reduction and I suspect it may be the best of all trinkets for constant CTC. (You may get more on average from trinkets that have proc or on use features, but I think with CTC constant uptime is particularly important - the whole point is to avoid damage spikes.)

I use it for my default 5 man gear, where I place a premium on CTC. For raiding, I would tend to use a stamina trinket and the stamina/resistance one from TB. But if I were ever to get into spitting distance of 102.4% CTC, I would be using this.
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Re: 4.0.6 Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby Digren » Thu Feb 17, 2011 9:20 am

th3m wrote:Digren what do you think of Tia's Grace Trinket?

http://www.wowhead.com/item=56394

Provides good junk of mastery, and you have like constant 340 agility up.
I think it should be somewhere in the list :D

It's a good trinket. Non-alchemists should be carrying it to end game, where it can be used along side a Baradin's trinket in a CTC-focused gear set. As I recommend one mastery and one stamina trinket in a "typical" base set, non-alchemists should see it just behind the Baradin's mastery option(s) as next best in slot.
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Re: 4.0.6 Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby Digren » Sat Feb 19, 2011 9:19 pm

Ok, with Chardev working, I've created models for gear at every stage. All that are missing are a few threat models (showing how a survival set can be turned into a threat set by substituting a few key pieces) and maybe a block-capped model for stage five end-game.

I welcome feedback and bug corrections.
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Re: Tank Stage 3: Geared to Start Raiding

Postby Gaxby » Sun Feb 20, 2011 4:32 am

Digren wrote:Threat (Expertise Rating)

[Left Eye of Rajh] : Expertise + Avoidance : Halls of Origination (Heroic) Rajh
[Magnetite Mirror] : Expertise + Threat : The Stonecore (Heroic) High Priestess Azil
[Left Eye of Rajh] : Expertise + Avoidance : Halls of Origination (Normal) Rajh


You listed Left Eye of Rajh twice at the end of the Stage 3 Tank section.
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Re: 4.0.6 Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby Syncognition » Sun Feb 20, 2011 10:43 am

He listed the normal and heroic versions.
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