4.2 Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Get help with your character's gear

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, Sabindeus, majiben, lythac, Digren

Re: 4.0.3a Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby Biggby » Mon Feb 07, 2011 7:58 am

Hi Guys,

Thanks so much for this list. It's really helped me plan which heroics I'm running and where I'm grinding rep.

I have a pretty elementary question for you, so please feel free to refer me to another thread or something. I got the Signet of the Elder Council last night and can't wrap my head around how this is a tanking ring. I keep looking at the agility and haste and comparing it to my current rings, neither of which are even listed as Stage 1 tank rings! They are both level 316 with more traditional tanking stats on them. I assume I should reforge the haste into mastery, but it still seems odd that this would be ranked above rings that have secondary stats of dodge, parry or even hit or expertise!

I want to understand why this is so good so I can make better judgement calls when comparing other gear. If I roll on some 1-handed weapon with agility on it and there's a hunter in my group, I'm going to need to be able to explain myself. (Plus, I'd like to be knowledgable and not just blindly following a guide.) I've read the above messages about agility converting to a certain percentage of avoidance, but feel like I still must be missing something. Thanks again.

Biggby
Biggby
 
Posts: 6
Joined: Mon Feb 07, 2011 7:41 am

Re: 4.0.3a Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby yappo » Mon Feb 07, 2011 8:04 am

Biggby wrote:Hi Guys,

Thanks so much for this list. It's really helped me plan which heroics I'm running and where I'm grinding rep.

I have a pretty elementary question for you, so please feel free to refer me to another thread or something. I got the Signet of the Elder Council last night and can't wrap my head around how this is a tanking ring. I keep looking at the agility and haste and comparing it to my current rings, neither of which are even listed as Stage 1 tank rings! They are both level 316 with more traditional tanking stats on them. I assume I should reforge the haste into mastery, but it still seems odd that this would be ranked above rings that have secondary stats of dodge, parry or even hit or expertise!

I want to understand why this is so good so I can make better judgement calls when comparing other gear. If I roll on some 1-handed weapon with agility on it and there's a hunter in my group, I'm going to need to be able to explain myself. (Plus, I'd like to be knowledgable and not just blindly following a guide.) I've read the above messages about agility converting to a certain percentage of avoidance, but feel like I still must be missing something. Thanks again.

Biggby


Take the agility number. Take 60% of it. That's dodge.
Does it come with a huge chunk of mastery? Well, block for you.
Reforge the third crap stat into parry/dodge.

On average, you're not interested in anything agility UNLESS it comes with a huge chunk of mastery on it (and that agility had better be pretty huge as well).
yappo
 
Posts: 1107
Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2008 4:15 pm

Re: 4.0.3a Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby econ21 » Mon Feb 07, 2011 8:20 am

When arguing with your hunters etc, the key thing to know is 60% dodge from agility and the impact of reforging. After that, it's just a matter of doing the maths.

With the Elder Council ring, a clean comparison might be with Felsen's ring of resolve, which is a nicely itemised mastery/dodge 346 tank ring.

http://www.wowhead.com/compare?items=62362;62351

With the Elder Council, you get 34 more stamina and 15 more mastery. For avoidance, you get 60% of agility and 40% of haste (reforged), which is 10 more dodge+parry rating than the pure dodge plus 25% parry from strength on Felsen.

But to be honest, I would not fight your hunter for an agility weapon unless it is a higher item level. I would have done in wotlk, where dps weapons could give a major boost to threat, but now we have a nice selection of slow strength weapons, they are not so great. That said, I thought hunters typically wanted 2H weapons?
econ21
 
Posts: 1378
Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2008 8:53 am

Re: 4.0.3a Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby Biggby » Mon Feb 07, 2011 8:49 am

Thanks for your replies. So I decided to try my hand at the math comparing the Signet to my current rings as well as comparing the two elementium rings (Destroyer's Ring and Moebius Band) against each other. Yeah ... when I do the math, it's pretty clear. Just counter-intuitive. The only thing that really hung me up was Mastery. Does it convert straight to block? How can I get a little clearer handle on that stat? I tend to value Mastery second only to Stam, but I'm not sure how to quantify X mastery versus X dodge/parry. Seems mastery is better, perhaps due to diminishing returns from dodge and parry? So 10 Mastery (when everything cancels out) is better than 10 dodge. But is it better than 20 dodge?

Oh, and you're probably right about hunters. I guess I just don't want to get questioned about why I'm rolling on something. I'm pretty sure I can defend myself with the math at this point.
Biggby
 
Posts: 6
Joined: Mon Feb 07, 2011 7:41 am

Re: 4.0.3a Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby Biggby » Mon Feb 07, 2011 9:07 am

OK, nevermind. I just did some digging and found the formulas comparing dodge/parry to mastery. I clearly need to reforge some of my dodge and parry into mastery. I'm over 12% in both of those. I think I can figure this stuff out by reading the formulas a few times and playing with the numbers. Thanks for getting me started! Feel like I'm finally starting to understand this stuff.

So, just to be sure -- I shouldn't compare dodge/parry to mastery. It's not really a matter of one versus the other. Dodge/Parry are good up to about 10%. I should try to maintain those two numbers at 10% and get anything above that reforged into mastery. Sound right? Sorry to wander off topic. On the plus side, I'm reforging and equipping that ring as soon as I get home tonight!
Biggby
 
Posts: 6
Joined: Mon Feb 07, 2011 7:41 am

Re: 4.0.3a Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby yappo » Mon Feb 07, 2011 9:30 am

Biggby wrote:OK, nevermind. I just did some digging and found the formulas comparing dodge/parry to mastery. I clearly need to reforge some of my dodge and parry into mastery. I'm over 12% in both of those. I think I can figure this stuff out by reading the formulas a few times and playing with the numbers. Thanks for getting me started! Feel like I'm finally starting to understand this stuff.

So, just to be sure -- I shouldn't compare dodge/parry to mastery. It's not really a matter of one versus the other. Dodge/Parry are good up to about 10%. I should try to maintain those two numbers at 10% and get anything above that reforged into mastery. Sound right? Sorry to wander off topic. On the plus side, I'm reforging and equipping that ring as soon as I get home tonight!


Not really. A full 30% avoidance seems to be where we end up (pre hardmode gear), 5% miss, 12% dodge and 13% parry. If your gear comes with a high threat stat then it's generally beter to reforge that into mastery. If your gear comes with dodge AND parry, you're either unlucky or haven't geared in the correct item out of the ones you have in your bags. If unlucky, you should indeed reforge one of the stats into mastery.
yappo
 
Posts: 1107
Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2008 4:15 pm

Re: 4.0.3a Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby Digren » Mon Feb 07, 2011 9:41 am

theckhd wrote:I'm not suggesting there isn't a target, but rather that the target will be different for a stage 4 tank than a stage 5 tank. Lower stages should see a lower ratio (i.e. stamina more valuable) and higher stages should see a higher ratio. Writing up that post earlier today made me think that we should get Meloree involved for old time's sake and start working out ratios for the different enchanting/gemming options.

Indeed, as it was in Wrath. I admit that this will make my ranking system much harder to understand, but I can (and will) use different parameters for ranking each stage if necessary.

It may look confusing, though, because on the stage four list I might have item A over item B, and then when you go to the stage five list item B might be ranked above item A. I think that's a necessary side effect, though. Not everyone will be a stage five tank - and I create multiple lists (one per stage) instead of one big list so that I can serve the people who won't hit end stage.
User avatar
Digren
Moderator
 
Posts: 2139
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2008 2:41 pm

Re: 4.0.3a Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby Biggby » Mon Feb 07, 2011 9:46 am

Thanks Yappo, I'm gonna try again. I got the 10% number here:http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/forum/index.php?f=3&t=30236&p=627747&rb_v=viewtopic#p627737. What I hear you saying is that, while the 10% number might technically be true, my first priority is to reforge threat stats rather than dodge and parry. Most of the best pieces of gear will have one of those stats along with dodge or parry, so my dodge and parry percentages will naturally grow to 12 or 13%.
Biggby
 
Posts: 6
Joined: Mon Feb 07, 2011 7:41 am

Re: 4.0.3a Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby Digren » Mon Feb 07, 2011 9:48 am

Biggby wrote:So, just to be sure -- I shouldn't compare dodge/parry to mastery. It's not really a matter of one versus the other. Dodge/Parry are good up to about 10%. I should try to maintain those two numbers at 10% and get anything above that reforged into mastery. Sound right? Sorry to wander off topic. On the plus side, I'm reforging and equipping that ring as soon as I get home tonight!

None of our stats really cap right now, so just concentrate on gearing to maximize each piece. That means getting A) the most mastery and/or stamina out of it (depending on how much stamina you want for the content you attempt), and B) the most avoidance possible after that.

On a piece with dodge/parry you should reforge the larger into mastery. On a piece with mastery/threat you should reforge the threat into either dodge or parry so as to attempt to make your raid-buffed dodge about 1% below your raid-buffed parry.

The only real exception to the "don't tune your overall gear" is for pieces with mastery/dodge or mastery/parry, which can be tuned by reforging dodge into parry or parry into dodge, whichever is necessary to hit that 1% dodge-parry difference.
User avatar
Digren
Moderator
 
Posts: 2139
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2008 2:41 pm

Re: 4.0.3a Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby econ21 » Mon Feb 07, 2011 9:51 am

Biggby wrote:So, just to be sure -- I shouldn't compare dodge/parry to mastery.


Well, you should compare - the question is by what metric: melee damage reduction (MDR) or combat table coverage (CTC)? For a comparable budget, mastery is flat out better by either metric. Hence always pick mastery+avoidance gear over 2x avoidance.

However, sometimes we have to make more tricky trade offs. In terms of MDR, mastery is somewhat better than avoidance; in terms of CTC it is dramatically better. I think this issue may start to bite when we compare mastery/threat gear with 2xavoidance gear. After reforging, MDR may tend to favour the latter; CTC the former. Opinions vary on which metric to use. I started off focusing on MDR, but as 102.4% starts to look attainable in the medium term, I tend to look more at CTC.
econ21
 
Posts: 1378
Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2008 8:53 am

Re: 4.0.3a Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby yappo » Mon Feb 07, 2011 9:58 am

econ21 wrote:
Biggby wrote:So, just to be sure -- I shouldn't compare dodge/parry to mastery.


Well, you should compare - the question is by what metric: melee damage reduction (MDR) or combat table coverage (CTC)? For a comparable budget, mastery is flat out better by either metric. Hence always pick mastery+avoidance gear over 2x avoidance.

However, sometimes we have to make more tricky trade offs. In terms of MDR, mastery is somewhat better than avoidance; in terms of CTC it is dramatically better. I think this issue may start to bite when we compare mastery/threat gear with 2xavoidance gear. After reforging, MDR may tend to favour the latter; CTC the former. Opinions vary on which metric to use. I started off focusing on MDR, but as 102.4% starts to look attainable in the medium term, I tend to look more at CTC.


And to make it even worse, when we start to climb really close to 102.4 (provided that we will do so at all) and even beyond, then healers will start to treat a tank with, say 101.4, as 1% crittable. After all, two minutes (average number taken from thin air) into the fight your steady stream of damage takens suddenly spikes with another 70% extra damage.
yappo
 
Posts: 1107
Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2008 4:15 pm

Re: Tank Stage 5: Heroic Raider

Postby Velo » Mon Feb 07, 2011 11:53 am

Digren wrote:I passed on including the heroic Necklace of Strife because there's no indication on Wowhead that it drops. I previously had some data mined items on the list that don't exist in game, and I wanted to stay away from that. Does it exist, then?

It looks like I just missed the heroic Mistral Circles. I have the regular ones on my spreadsheet and on the stage four list, and they ranked pretty high. Not sure why I missed them other than that I was doing that bit at work at lunch and someone might have interrupted me. :D

Edit: Yeah the heroic Mistrals with mastery are pretty much tied with Dargonax's Signet for second place, so they'd make a good choice if your loot system would let you take them.


The [Necklace of Strife] does exist, this feral druid from Paragon has one:
http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/lightnings-blade/sejta/advanced
Assuming it exists then it would be our 2nd best neck before Caelestrasz's Will?

@Dirgen/Theck Thanks for the input on the rings. I would love to have Dargonax's Signet but I'm being more realistic to what our guild can progress with at the moment lol, so Mistrals work out much better.
Velo
 
Posts: 2
Joined: Fri Feb 04, 2011 6:51 pm

Re: 4.0.3a Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby Digren » Mon Feb 07, 2011 3:30 pm

yappo wrote:
econ21 wrote:
Biggby wrote:So, just to be sure -- I shouldn't compare dodge/parry to mastery.


Well, you should compare - the question is by what metric: melee damage reduction (MDR) or combat table coverage (CTC)? For a comparable budget, mastery is flat out better by either metric. Hence always pick mastery+avoidance gear over 2x avoidance.

However, sometimes we have to make more tricky trade offs. In terms of MDR, mastery is somewhat better than avoidance; in terms of CTC it is dramatically better. I think this issue may start to bite when we compare mastery/threat gear with 2xavoidance gear. After reforging, MDR may tend to favour the latter; CTC the former. Opinions vary on which metric to use. I started off focusing on MDR, but as 102.4% starts to look attainable in the medium term, I tend to look more at CTC.


And to make it even worse, when we start to climb really close to 102.4 (provided that we will do so at all) and even beyond, then healers will start to treat a tank with, say 101.4, as 1% crittable. After all, two minutes (average number taken from thin air) into the fight your steady stream of damage takens suddenly spikes with another 70% extra damage.

Yeah as soon as 102.4% seems reasonably attainable, I'll shed avoidance and stamina and whatever else is necessary to reach it. I think my natural tendency towards effective health will re-emerge.

That said - we still don't know how Blizzard plans to implement their stated goal for required ratings to vary from tier to tier at a constant level. Again - if T12 bosses are "higher" in some fashion - be that increased boss hit and expertise rating or some hidden tuning - then 102.4% may remain perpetually out of reach for all but the farmers of old content and stage five tanks finished with progression.
User avatar
Digren
Moderator
 
Posts: 2139
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2008 2:41 pm

Re: 4.0.3a Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby Cosain » Thu Feb 10, 2011 12:10 pm

I had a quick (I hope) question. I am currently iLvl 340 working my way through the stages... Now that the crafted BS armor have gem slots, how do they (specifically the chest piece) fit into the picture now? Does it move up on the "worthiness" list any?

Thanks for the response!
Cosain
 
Posts: 5
Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2011 12:06 pm

Re: 4.0.3a Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby yappo » Thu Feb 10, 2011 1:25 pm

Cosain wrote:I had a quick (I hope) question. I am currently iLvl 340 working my way through the stages... Now that the crafted BS armor have gem slots, how do they (specifically the chest piece) fit into the picture now? Does it move up on the "worthiness" list any?

Thanks for the response!


Yes, the chest does, but not in the way we would have liked. The huge chunk of expertise on it is what makes it interesting for those fights where you (rightly or wrongly) feel you can't afford missing Crusader Strike. The gem-slot, and corresponding itemization change, makes it a little less bad overall than it was before.

The belt, however, got just even a little better from being very good before.
yappo
 
Posts: 1107
Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2008 4:15 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Gear Discussions and Advice

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

Who is online

In total there is 1 user online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest