Where have I gone wrong? Gear advice please

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Where have I gone wrong? Gear advice please

Postby Swordlight » Wed Sep 22, 2010 7:51 am

Hello guys and gals,

I don't know what has happened, but in the last two patches, I have noticed my threat seems to have plummetted! I have a 969696 rotation set up manually, have checked my talent builds, glyphs and gems. I have good gear and a good choice of trinkets also. I don't have a good shield, even though I have been doing ICC10/25 and ToC 10 every week for months! I have lost the rolls on both shields a pathetic number of times!

Here is my armoury link. I would really appreciate some help sorting my threat, it's getting silly now!
http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet ... Swordlight

Many thanks,

Swordlight :-)
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Re: Where have I gone wrong? Gear advice please

Postby Feanorion » Wed Sep 22, 2010 3:20 pm

Swordlight wrote:Hello guys and gals,

I don't know what has happened, but in the last two patches, I have noticed my threat seems to have plummetted! I have a 969696 rotation set up manually, have checked my talent builds, glyphs and gems. I have good gear and a good choice of trinkets also. I don't have a good shield, even though I have been doing ICC10/25 and ToC 10 every week for months! I have lost the rolls on both shields a pathetic number of times!

Here is my armoury link. I would really appreciate some help sorting my threat, it's getting silly now!
http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet ... Swordlight

Many thanks,

Swordlight :-)


Strictly my opinion, but there is no reason for your threat to have plummeted recently. Are your rogues/hunters providing TotT and/or Misdirects regularly? You are over the hit cap, and if you use SoV, you will be way over the dodge-cap, so that is not your problem.

Going slot by slot, this is what I would do in your shoes, not knowing much about your specific situation.

Head: use a Shifting Dreadstone instead of a Strength gem.
Shoulders: use PvP shoulder enchant, and I would consider gemming shoulders straight stamina.
Back: enchant Armor and gem Stamina.
Gloves: I abhor the Amrsman enchant. I would use stamina kit or Glove Reinforcements http://www.wowhead.com/item=34207
Belt: again, I would gem straight stamina.
Boots: straight stamina, because you are 50 over the hit cap.
Corpse Tongue Coin: bank it until Cata, then reforge Dodge into Mastery. Do not use it until then. Use a dps trinket.
CSK: if you haven't already done so, consider macro'ing the clicky to Divine Protection. It makes the absorb very effective.
Weapon: again, over hit cap significantly, so I would slap Mongoose on that bad boy.
Shield: Stamina enchant
Libram: use the Libram of Valiance http://www.wowhead.com/item=34207. 200 Strength is more than you are losing by swapping out Strength gems.

I fully realize that much of this does not address your threat issue. This is because I do not believe your threat issues come from your gear. Your problem may lie in one point of your spec: move the point of Conviction into Seal of Command. The cleave is amazing for dps and threat on trash packs. If your problems are threat in ICC in particular, make sure you are using Holy Wrath on cd on trash mobs, target-switching (I click on the left-most mob first, center, then far right, then back the other way, switching with every HotR clang) to spread your Seal of Command's cleaving goodness, using Avenging Wrath if you are not going to need defensive cd's during the next 30 seconds, and if nothing else, toss Avenger's Shield instead of a judgement when its available.

If I am off the mark somewhere in my suppositions, please offer more information.
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Re: Where have I gone wrong? Gear advice please

Postby inthedrops » Wed Sep 22, 2010 3:49 pm

Link combatlog and people can help.
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Re: Where have I gone wrong? Gear advice please

Postby econ21 » Thu Sep 23, 2010 1:30 am

Feanorion wrote: Your problem may lie in one point of your spec: move the point of Conviction into Seal of Command.


This, a thousand times this. At least if the problem is threat on trash[1]. If it's threat on bosses, I am mystified.

It's going to be, erm, interesting to see how we adjust to losing SoC in Cataclysm as it is totally OP on trash right now.


[1]Note you will want a shield block threat libram for SoC, as the SoV one obviously is wasted.
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Re: Where have I gone wrong? Gear advice please

Postby Chasey » Thu Sep 23, 2010 5:58 am

A point to remember that EVERYONE gets a 30% buff in damage, meaning on trash those over zealous DPS'rs who want to put up the big trash numbers are giving you less and less time to establish aggro.

I 100%, totally, fully and whole heartly agree on the advice Feanorion outlined for you. You really need to lose some Def and hit rating. Every point you are over hit and exp soft cap is almost wasted points. 583 DEF is way to much.

Also I'd talk with your hunters and rogues, these places you are looking at where aggro is an issue....DEMAND that you get tricks and MD's. It really is their job and means alot for those crazy number hunting DPS that are pulling off of you.
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Re: Where have I gone wrong? Gear advice please

Postby beornus » Thu Sep 23, 2010 6:08 am

It may be as simple as Righteous Fury, when I see anything getting pulled after I get 2-3 abilities into my rotation I find that is almost always the answer (or my Boomies used stars, often more than 1 at the same time). If that is not the issue a log is needed to identify the issue given your statement.
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Re: Where have I gone wrong? Gear advice please

Postby Swordlight » Thu Sep 23, 2010 11:06 am

Thanks so much guys, I have redone my talents to move that point into Seal of Command, and also fixed all my enchants except two things:

Head: use a Shifting Dreadstone instead of a Strength gem.
Shoulders: use PvP shoulder enchant, and I would consider gemming shoulders straight stamina.
Back: enchant Armor and gem Stamina.
Gloves: I abhor the Amrsman enchant. I would use stamina kit or Glove Reinforcements http://www.wowhead.com/item=34207
Belt: again, I would gem straight stamina.
Boots: straight stamina, because you are 50 over the hit cap.
Corpse Tongue Coin: bank it until Cata, then reforge Dodge into Mastery. Do not use it until then. Use a dps trinket.
CSK: if you haven't already done so, consider macro'ing the clicky to Divine Protection. It makes the absorb very effective.
Weapon: again, over hit cap significantly, so I would slap Mongoose on that bad boy.
Shield: Stamina enchant
Libram: use the Libram of Valiance http://www.wowhead.com/item=34207. 200 Strength is more than you are losing by swapping out Strength gems.


I read that Mongoose only has less than 25% proc up time? Should I be using Blood Draining instead?

I assumed the PvP enchant is the lvl 70 one that gives 30 stam/15 resil? Is that correct?

Finally, which trinket should I use instead of Corpse Tongue Coin? I have Brawlers, Icks Thumb, Glyph of Indomitability and the Black Heart, plus both Brewmaidens and Furnace Stone from Ulduar. Which DPS one is worth getting?

Once again, you guys rock, thanks so much for the help, mega improvement in threat already!

Cheers,

Swordlight
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Re: Where have I gone wrong? Gear advice please

Postby Feanorion » Thu Sep 23, 2010 7:56 pm

Swordlight wrote:Thanks so much guys, I have redone my talents to move that point into Seal of Command, and also fixed all my enchants except two things:

Head: use a Shifting Dreadstone instead of a Strength gem.
Shoulders: use PvP shoulder enchant, and I would consider gemming shoulders straight stamina.
Back: enchant Armor and gem Stamina.
Gloves: I abhor the Amrsman enchant. I would use stamina kit or Glove Reinforcements http://www.wowhead.com/item=34207
Belt: again, I would gem straight stamina.
Boots: straight stamina, because you are 50 over the hit cap.
Corpse Tongue Coin: bank it until Cata, then reforge Dodge into Mastery. Do not use it until then. Use a dps trinket.
CSK: if you haven't already done so, consider macro'ing the clicky to Divine Protection. It makes the absorb very effective.
Weapon: again, over hit cap significantly, so I would slap Mongoose on that bad boy.
Shield: Stamina enchant
Libram: use the Libram of Valiance http://www.wowhead.com/item=34207. 200 Strength is more than you are losing by swapping out Strength gems.


I read that Mongoose only has less than 25% proc up time? Should I be using Blood Draining instead?

I assumed the PvP enchant is the lvl 70 one that gives 30 stam/15 resil? Is that correct?

Finally, which trinket should I use instead of Corpse Tongue Coin? I have Brawlers, Icks Thumb, Glyph of Indomitability and the Black Heart, plus both Brewmaidens and Furnace Stone from Ulduar. Which DPS one is worth getting?

Once again, you guys rock, thanks so much for the help, mega improvement in threat already!

Cheers,

Swordlight


I use Blood Draining, but it does zero for threat. Mongoose provides threat (crit and haste) and survivability (armor and dodge), but not a lot of either. None of the tanking enchants are exactly difference-makers, but Mongoose is the best all-purpose enchant.

Yes, the 30 stamina/15 resilience enchant. 10k honor.

Trinkets are situational. In ICC, I would use The Black Heart or the Glyph for most fights. If you're tanking the shadowbolter blood prince, pure stamina is the way to go, so a Brewfest might be your best bet there. Maybe on Sindragosa, as well. But all trinkets are to be subbed out situationally.

Assuming CSK as a constant, for a second trinket, I would use The Black Heart on Marrowgar, LDW, Lootship, DBS, ProfP, BQL, and Val.

I would use a Brewfest on Keleseth, Rotface slime-tanking, and Sindragosa.

I would use the Glyph on Festergut (the dodge on-use is helpful and dependable on 3-inhales) and if tanking Taldaram+Valanar.

You could use no trinkets at all on Rotface himself for as hard as he hits.

I have not done LK yet, so I will refrain from advising. Others are more qualified to advise you on that encounter.
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Re: Where have I gone wrong? Gear advice please

Postby lythac » Thu Sep 23, 2010 8:30 pm

inthedrops wrote:Link combatlog and people can help.


Having threat issues is normally either -

1) Doing the rotation slowly.
2) Saying you are doing 969 when you aren't.

Once we know which you are doing it becomes easier. I checked WoL and WMO and your guild doesn't log. In this case if you run recount, check to see how often you cast HotR and ShoR on a tank and spank fight and divide by fight length time. Now this won't show if you are doing the right rotation but can be semi useful if you are seeing either above 6.67 seconds.
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Re: Where have I gone wrong? Gear advice please

Postby Swordlight » Fri Sep 24, 2010 12:42 am

Thanks guys. Ok, trinket info helpful. Which dps trinket is good for threat?

I know that sometimes my rotation can be slow due to latency. Also when I am tired etc there is the usual "finger trouble". But I normally keep it flowing. I use the correct rotation and have looked at my recount timings and they are a little slow. I think I often mess up by clipping. I used to get a little bar in my UI showing cast time and when I could trigger the next one to take account of latency but I can't seem to find that anymore. Not sure if it was an add on? Any ideas?

Finally logs - we don't log but I would like to start because it would be very helpful for us. How do I go about it? Which add ons/set ups are good for guild/raid logging?

Cheers,

Swordlight
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Re: Where have I gone wrong? Gear advice please

Postby econ21 » Fri Sep 24, 2010 1:10 am

Swordlight wrote:Which dps trinket is good for threat?


I use darkmoon card greatness, as strength is our best threat stat once we are hit and expertise (soft) capped. But with Cataclysm coming out, I am not sure I would spend money on it.

If you have frost emblems coming out of your ears, the 264 dps trinket is supposed to be ok for tankadins. I don't like the 245 one, but that may be because it is so easy to get hit capped as a tankadin without it (I also dislike on use dps trinkets).

Even on a threat set, I only use one dps trinket. The Corroded Skeleton Key is too nice to give up.
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Re: Where have I gone wrong? Gear advice please

Postby Feanorion » Fri Sep 24, 2010 12:22 pm

Swordlight wrote:Thanks guys. Ok, trinket info helpful. Which dps trinket is good for threat?

I know that sometimes my rotation can be slow due to latency. Also when I am tired etc there is the usual "finger trouble". But I normally keep it flowing. I use the correct rotation and have looked at my recount timings and they are a little slow. I think I often mess up by clipping. I used to get a little bar in my UI showing cast time and when I could trigger the next one to take account of latency but I can't seem to find that anymore. Not sure if it was an add on? Any ideas?

Finally logs - we don't log but I would like to start because it would be very helpful for us. How do I go about it? Which add ons/set ups are good for guild/raid logging?

Cheers,

Swordlight


Actually, just for my own peace of mind, would you specify exactly what your rotation is? Assume no hand of ---- spells or anything funky. Patchwerk-type rotation.

There is an add-on I highly recommend. The following is a Curse.com link to TankadinTPS.
http://wow.curse.com/downloads/wow-addons/details/tankadintps.aspx
It gives detailed information on a fight-by-fight basis. It is NOT as good as parsed logs, but it is easy to use, you can see it in game, and you can save particular fights and share the info with other TTPS users.
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Re: Where have I gone wrong? Gear advice please

Postby golfinguy » Fri Sep 24, 2010 12:47 pm

Feanorion wrote:Gloves: I abhor the Amrsman enchant. I would use stamina kit or Glove Reinforcements http://www.wowhead.com/item=34207


Sure, sure - but for a toon struggling for threat let em have the 2%. It will help with the current issue and not hurt anything. You seem to possess a lot of emotion over such a minor issue :wink:


Also, missing the 'sense undead' minor glyph - for those running ICC that's a mistake. There's another 1% for you vs. the relative uselessness of the blessing glyphs.
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Re: Where have I gone wrong? Gear advice please

Postby Feanorion » Fri Sep 24, 2010 4:23 pm

golfinguy wrote:
Feanorion wrote:Gloves: I abhor the Amrsman enchant. I would use stamina kit or Glove Reinforcements http://www.wowhead.com/item=34207


Sure, sure - but for a toon struggling for threat let em have the 2%. It will help with the current issue and not hurt anything. You seem to possess a lot of emotion over such a minor issue :wink:


Also, missing the 'sense undead' minor glyph - for those running ICC that's a mistake. There's another 1% for you vs. the relative uselessness of the blessing glyphs.


If he is producing low threat, Armsman provides less benefit. If he is only producing 7k tps, then that is only an additional 140 tps. That is a pretty insignificant bonus. Armsman would only help if the caster dps are producing 131-132% of his non-Armsman threat. If they are producing 133% or more, they will still pull off of him.

As I said, I would be amazed if his problem is gear-related, and I am absolutely convinced that Strength gems and Armsman are not going to solve the problem.

In fact, while using Strength gems and Armsman, he has had threat problems. Those are clearly not adequate solutions. Since my gear is not much better than his (aside from gems/enchants), and I have few problems with threat and none that a timely HoSalv or Avenging Wrath can't solve, then I am inclined to believe the problem is most likely player-related. Not necessarily the OP; I really want to see if TotT and/or MD's are being used, and if so, upon whom.
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Re: Where have I gone wrong? Gear advice please

Postby Chasey » Fri Sep 24, 2010 7:03 pm

@ swordlight, looked over the toon again. Looking alot better just a few other pieces of advice and I know its expenisve doing this but you are gemming Exp/stam and you have stam/run speed on your boots.
You have 26 exp showing on you armory and glyph'd SoV which add an additional 10 exp putting you above cap. Also have Poj in your build the boot enchant and Poj don't stack.

I also agree on the Armsman, its not itemized well at all and threat really shouldn't be an issue so that 2% won't help much.
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