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ICC ready without a single emblem or drop

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Re: ICC ready without a single emblem or drop

Postby econ21 » Wed Sep 15, 2010 1:54 pm

I don't know how far the gear set would get into ICC, but I suspect it would get me through most of the first wing. I am pretty sure it would not explode on Marrowgar trash.

Look at the gear that Barathorn used to tank the first wing of ICC in his case study. I don't know how he gemmed and enchanted it, but if I plug the gear listed in his first post into RAWR, I get these numbers:

HP 34276
AV 25228
Dodge 24.61%
Miss 8.64%
Parry 18.25%
Threat: 6635.5 tps

Now I am not saying these figures are strictly accurate - Rawr put some funky gems in the gear and when I tried to change them to solid stamina, the set soon became uncrit. But they are probably roughly ok.

If we compare the gear list in my first post, the corresponding numbers are:

HP 38996
AV 24684
Dodge 21.12%
Miss: 7.95%
Parry 17.88%
Threat: 5873.8 tps

In terms of survivability, I honestly can't see a big difference.

The threat difference is there, but I suspect that is largely from comparing a 232 weapon with a 200 one. Getting a better weapon would be the top priority of what heroic farming I will do.
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Re: ICC ready without a single emblem or drop

Postby Chicken » Wed Sep 15, 2010 2:02 pm

It should definitely be possible yeah, though it'll be a bit rough, and definitely rather hard to convince people to take you along. But there's actually a guild that's managed to kill Festergut with only blue gear (With the 30% buff admittedly). See this thread on MMO-Champion: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/718 ... Chronicles
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Re: ICC ready without a single emblem or drop

Postby Koatanga » Wed Sep 15, 2010 2:15 pm

I rolled a prot pally on horde side to experience the horde... experience. He dinged 80 2 weeks ago.

This close to Cata, I seriously cbf to deck him out in all the expensive BoEs, so I basically got him to uncrittable to start running heroics and off I went.

Some friends of mine also have filthy dirty stinking nasty hordies. Last week, they got the bright idea that we should put together an ICC run, and by the way I am the off-tank.

I quickly gemmed and enchanted my blues with more than just placeholder stuff, and stepped into End Game Content. Things went more slowly than on our mains, but we managed to get through the first 6 plus the badge boss in our allotted raid time.

All of my friends (6 of the 10) were woefully undergeared - only one of us had been into ICC previously on horde side, and him only once. The remaining 4 were PuGs who performed at or below the level of our scrubs.

My gear score going in was around 3200. I had several blues and a BoA weapon. I had 1pc T9 (shoulders, to replace my BoA shoulders). I was barely uncrittable, using Seal of the Pantheon to reach def min.

The point of this is that you can do the early parts of ICC with practically no gear. That 30% buff is OP. If you are going in with friends, don't be afraid to start in with crap gear.

But don't expect drops - we downed 6 bosses and all I got was Gutbuster and a rep ring >.<
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Re: ICC ready without a single emblem or drop

Postby Vrimmel » Wed Sep 15, 2010 7:36 pm

yeah, good gear is no issue. No group would take you in without having another well geared tank which can take a big load off your shoulders. A full clear might be a bit difficult, but you should be able to do 10 bosses at least without too many difficulties.
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Re: ICC ready without a single emblem or drop

Postby Koatanga » Wed Sep 15, 2010 7:52 pm

The main tank was also a "scrub" by pug standards, also sub-5k gearscore. The content, with regard to tanks, just isn't that difficult with the 30% buff to both tank health and healing.

With my scrub gear, I was rocking 50k HP after raid buffs and 30% boost. The main tank had 56k. Neither of us had been in ICC on those toons previously, and we only ran ToC10 for the first time the previous day.

So it wasn't really a case of the good carrying the bad - we're all bad. The 30% buff is just that good.
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Re: ICC ready without a single emblem or drop

Postby Barathorn » Thu Sep 16, 2010 12:54 am

Feanorion wrote:I would love to see a tank attempt to tank ICC 10 in this gear. I am not at all averse to being proven wrong. But I think that the attempt would highlight the need for tanks to pay attention to all aspects of tank gearing, not just HP.


I tanked the first 6 bosses of ICC10 in gear nowhere near as good as the list supplied. The buff makes it laughable. The gear setup as listed would only have issues with 4-5 bosses at most.

I still think saving money is a better option but then I son't even know if I am going to play Kittyclysm yet, I think for me WoW has probably had its day.
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Re: ICC ready without a single emblem or drop

Postby yappo » Thu Sep 16, 2010 3:02 am

Ok, I think we can close this one pretty fast:

http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet ... cn=Therden
Armoury shows me in a neck and bracers I didn't have/use when I started pugging ICC in BIG-Yellow_numbers-IS-FUN gear. Both slots were PvP-gear.

http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet ... r&cn=Kakad
While this tank is geared for SHIT-IS-HITTING-THE-FAN, I normally ran ICC in gear similar to the alt-tank above. That gear gives me less than 35k hp unbuffed.

Bear in mind that we're talking 20 and 25% buff respectively. There's an additional 5% unkillability in the game now.

The entire first wing is NOT, repeat NOT, an issue apart from the weekly being the giant before lootship. I'm tanking lootship 'heroic' mode in my dps-gear.

For obvious reasons threat is not an issue due to a sustained dps close to 7k over the course of a standard 7/12 PUG.

Now, the times I made a mistake and allowed myself to be conviced that I needed to gear up in what Kakad is currently sporting, then I HAD major problems. Reason being that if you bring a modern battle-tank to fight Greek Phalanx then you're going to be so mana-starved that you're crying blood.

Any decently geared (meaning following every standard advice on how to gear and having mostly 264 or better gear) tank is prone to threat-capping dps in IC 10 noral mode by virtue of taking close to zero damage. This is bad for dps-health, even if it keeps healers awake.

While my progression is poor I do have rather a lot of experience from the content econ is referring to BECAUSE my progression is poor. Those who are autobotting everything before Sindy and LK on 25-man heroic mode just can't imagine how absurd the first wings have become on ICC 10 normal mode.

PS: Big yellow numbers ARE fun. The last two runs (admittedly some time ago) we found out pre-Marrow-pull that two and three dps respectively had staid AFK the entire trash run. These are the kind of minor details a pug could miss when tanks are doing 15k+ dps.
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Re: ICC ready without a single emblem or drop

Postby Koatanga » Thu Sep 16, 2010 1:25 pm

Went into ICC again last night with my scrubadin.

Unbuffed stats per Rawr:

Health: 33859
Armour: 25761
Dodge: 23.29
Parry: 19.75
Miss: 8.64

Gearscore is around 4600.

We cleared 9/12 with only one wipe (not tank-related - someone bit the wrong person). I even had to single-tank 75 of gunship when the other tank fell off and died (he expected it to reset him on the other ship, but he plummeted to his doom).

ICC10 norm is easily doable with those stats.
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Re: ICC ready without a single emblem or drop

Postby inthedrops » Thu Sep 16, 2010 1:37 pm

So many people underestimate the ICC buff.

This isn't a good example, but it's something. Just yesterday I was tanking heroic 10 man Marrowgar on an alt paladin. The other tank died with about 18% left of Marrowgor.

I solo tanked the remaining 18% or so until the boss died. My unbuffed stats are roughly 40k HP and 32k armor. I was out of cooldowns and we didn't have any healer cooldowns available. My health dropped to a sliver a couple of times but I lucked out and lived.

I would have died 5 times over if there were no buff.

On a lot of those fights you don't even need good armor either. And it's REALLY easy to come into it with 28k armor.

Basically what I'm trying to say is that you'd be surprised how scrubby a tank can be. I've had a 30k HP tank in VoA 25 too and we did just fine (well, I wasn't healing so who am I to say...). People expect too much.
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Re: ICC ready without a single emblem or drop

Postby fuzzygeek » Thu Sep 16, 2010 2:28 pm

inthedrops wrote:So many people underestimate the ICC buff.

This isn't a good example, but it's something. Just yesterday I was tanking heroic 10 man Marrowgar on an alt paladin. The other tank died with about 18% left of Marrowgor.


Derail: people two tank 10m Marrowgar (heroic or non)? That's interesting. /derail

Also, 30% is a really big number. An undergeared tank can manage most of ICC just fine, but undergeared tanks /and/ healers is going horrible places very quickly.

There are definitely things that skilled and experienced tanks can do to compensate for their lack of gear. The problem is, undergeared tanks are usually undergeared due to a lack of experience, so I'm sure you can see the pitfall here.
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Re: ICC ready without a single emblem or drop

Postby yappo » Thu Sep 16, 2010 3:30 pm

fuzzygeek wrote:
Also, 30% is a really big number. An undergeared tank can manage most of ICC just fine, but undergeared tanks /and/ healers is going horrible places very quickly.

There are definitely things that skilled and experienced tanks can do to compensate for their lack of gear. The problem is, undergeared tanks are usually undergeared due to a lack of experience, so I'm sure you can see the pitfall here.


While this is certainly correct, I believe we should put things into context. Context here being econ dumping an alt-tank into ICC 10. Any tanking player being bored enough to bring a SECOND tank into ICC is highly unlikely to lack the experience to handle ICC 10 normal mode.
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Re: ICC ready without a single emblem or drop

Postby ~Healthis~ » Thu Sep 16, 2010 4:09 pm

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Re: ICC ready without a single emblem or drop

Postby fuzzygeek » Thu Sep 16, 2010 4:22 pm

yappo wrote:Any tanking player being bored enough to bring a SECOND tank into ICC is highly unlikely to lack the experience to handle ICC 10 normal mode.


I should clarify that it's sometimes experience playing the class. I have one of each kind of tank and 3 of the 4 have cleared ICC; I shelved my DK back in March because it just wasn't any fun to play. If I were to take my DK into ICC now, I certainly couldn't play the class as well as I play the others, and would probably be unlikely to compensate for her poor gear, or have the reflexes to "hey mash this ohshit button nao."
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Re: ICC ready without a single emblem or drop

Postby econ21 » Fri Sep 17, 2010 1:29 am

Given how soon Cata is likely to come out (2-4 Nov?), I fear my warrior alt won't see ICC. I will be following Barathorn's advice and conserving my gold (not sure about emblems - I doubt we will get much from carrying them through to L85). My guild also seems to have lost some interest in raiding now that we have just downed the LK (yes, we were slow but only reformed a few months ago).

However, I have been surprised to discover how similar tanking is on my warrior to my paladin. I thought it would be a big learning curve - and was particularly worried about reportedly having to tab-target. (I even imagined I would have to set up CC like in the old BC days). But it's still the same in your face, aggressive wotlk play style I have got used to as a paladin. To be honest, I prefer it - having a toolbox rather than a rotation; and charging is such fun. It's heresy on this forum, but I am even considering making my alt my main. The gear reset with Cata makes this easy but there are emotional attachments to consider. I will see how paladin tanking is under Cata. Losing Seal of Cleave and having Holy Power will certainly shake things up a little.
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Re: ICC ready without a single emblem or drop

Postby theckhd » Fri Sep 17, 2010 7:46 am

econ21 wrote:But it's still the same in your face, aggressive wotlk play style I have got used to as a paladin. To be honest, I prefer it - having a toolbox rather than a rotation; and charging is such fun. It's heresy on this forum, but I am even considering making my alt my main. The gear reset with Cata makes this easy but there are emotional attachments to consider. I will see how paladin tanking is under Cata. Losing Seal of Cleave and having Holy Power will certainly shake things up a little.


I couldn't have said it better. I doubt I'll switch mains, just because I've got too much invested in Theck. If achievements were account-wide I'd probably do it though. Warriors are simply more fun.
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