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BiS or WiS?

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Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, Sabindeus, majiben, lythac, Digren

Re: BiS or WiS?

Postby Dantriges » Sun Sep 19, 2010 9:04 am

Most guilds whoare now working on LK hard are more of the crowd "We have to make do with what we get, not what we wish we had."

I am on a high pop server. I think only theserver first did LK hard. The rest is fighting an uphill battle because of people unsubscribing, people not interested in signing in for raids and no suitable replacements. Possible replacements unsubscribe because they see no sense in it and the others are already in a guild that downs LK or try to apply for one.
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Re: BiS or WiS?

Postby Xfighter » Sun Sep 19, 2010 11:04 am

Feanorion wrote:Did you miss this just a few posts up?

Alas, I did. My appologies. :oops:
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Re: BiS or WiS?

Postby Feanorion » Sun Sep 19, 2010 11:05 am

Xfighter wrote:
Feanorion wrote:Did you miss this just a few posts up?

Alas, I did. My appologies. :oops:


No problem. I'm sure at some point in my life, I will eventually say something in error. Not that its happened yet, mind you. :mrgreen:
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Re: BiS or WiS?

Postby Barathorn » Mon Sep 20, 2010 3:21 am

Feanorion wrote:
Xfighter wrote:
Feanorion wrote:Did you miss this just a few posts up?

Alas, I did. My appologies. :oops:


No problem. I'm sure at some point in my life, I will eventually say something in error. Not that its happened yet, mind you. :mrgreen:


Don't make me give you existing examples :wink: .

In short, different courses for different horses seems to be the main miscommunication here.

For new tanks going into ICC10 normal, Armsman is not a bad enchant. Any plus to threat is a boost vs geared DPS.
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Re: BiS or WiS?

Postby Nikachelle » Mon Sep 20, 2010 10:34 am

Fridmarr wrote:I doubt that there are many guilds that raid regularly without both a hunter and a rogue.

Oh hai. I haven't had a rogue in my raids since February of this year. Nor have I had a hunter worth his salt either. (Also, his 12% attendance to raids in the past four months means he usually sees the first four bosses, if anything at all.)

Yes, there are serious guilds out there that don't have either of those classes.
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Re: BiS or WiS?

Postby fuzzygeek » Mon Sep 20, 2010 5:36 pm

Nikachelle wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:I doubt that there are many guilds that raid regularly without both a hunter and a rogue.

Oh hai. I haven't had a rogue in my raids since February of this year. Nor have I had a hunter worth his salt either. (Also, his 12% attendance to raids in the past four months means he usually sees the first four bosses, if anything at all.)

Yes, there are serious guilds out there that don't have either of those classes.


CLEARLY NOT SERIOUS.

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Re: BiS or WiS?

Postby Digren » Tue Sep 21, 2010 12:25 pm

Feanorion wrote:1) And if that Holy Paladin winds up in a group without an innervate?
2) And if the Dranei calls off for that night's raid, what are they going to do? Besides miss or be resisted?
3) And if there is no DK present?
4) And if the high-critting caster is not a mage, and the mages (magi?) use a FM circle?

5) Relying on someone else to consistently provide you with something you are capable of bringing for yourself is a recipe for disaster.

6) Using them for a specific point in a specific encounter? Of course! But to just ignore threat by letting Hit Rating dwindle to nearly nothing, because you know (or think you know) that you will be fed MT's and MD's consistently is just laziness. I gear and plan for the worst case scenario. I stack Armor and Health because I hate random chance deciding my fate to any degree greater than necessary.

1) Pop a potion? Or ask players to use a healthstone? What do you propose as the alternative, that all paladins regear as FoL tanks so that they're never at a loss for mana?

2) Switch in one hit trinket and stay hit capped, since it's important that they stay so?

5) Always bringing for yourself things that you can rely on your teammates to provide makes you less good at the things they brought you for. Maximize and specialize is always the best choice to maximize performance. I've learned that in a decade of playing a paladin tank and much of the time being relegated to second-tier behind classes crafted to do my job better.

6) Actually I think we agree on this, but it's a matter of perspective. You consider your hit-capped (+threat) set to be your standard set, because you think that you need to be hit capped on your own. You switch to an alternate set at specific points (such as if a Draenei ends up in your group) but call this your alternate set. On the other hand, I consider my standard set to be my tanking set, with survival maximized but threat dependent on MDs. When I need more threat and don't have MD available, I switch to a hit-capped alternative set.

We have very similar gearing strategies, but the default sets we wear when tooling around Dalaran are opposite.
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Re: BiS or WiS?

Postby Feanorion » Tue Sep 21, 2010 8:03 pm

Digren wrote:5) Always bringing for yourself things that you can rely on your teammates to provide makes you less good at the things they brought you for. Maximize and specialize is always the best choice to maximize performance. I've learned that in a decade of playing a paladin tank and much of the time being relegated to second-tier behind classes crafted to do my job better.

6) Actually I think we agree on this, but it's a matter of perspective. You consider your hit-capped (+threat) set to be your standard set, because you think that you need to be hit capped on your own. You switch to an alternate set at specific points (such as if a Draenei ends up in your group) but call this your alternate set. On the other hand, I consider my standard set to be my tanking set, with survival maximized but threat dependent on MDs. When I need more threat and don't have MD available, I switch to a hit-capped alternative set.

We have very similar gearing strategies, but the default sets we wear when tooling around Dalaran are opposite.


5) But as I posted earlier, my raid makeup is uncertain and out of my control. Until I am actually zoned in, I often don't know if we will have a rogue or a hunter, or if we will have a paladin healer, or if we will have a shaman for Bloodlust. We'll have some or at least one of those, but which ones? :? :?: :cry:

6) ALL of my sets (except vanity sets) are hit-capped, or very, very close. Since I'm Horde, one of the few certainties is that I will not have a Dranei in my raid. :lol: My default tanking gear is my balanced set, with the Bonebreaker Scepter, TBH, and CSK. My max-survival set is what I call my high-armor set:

Broken Ram-Skull Helm
Sanctified shoulders
Marrowgar's Scratching Choker
Sentinel's Winter Cloak
Cataclysmic Chestguard
Gargoyle Spit Bracers
T-10 gloves
Verdegris Chain Belt
Pillars of Might
Clutch of Fortification and Exalted Ashen Verdict rings
CSK and either Glyph or TBH (tank swaps get TBH)
Ardent Guard (Blood Draining)
Neverending Winter
Dodge Libram

I also have a stam-set.
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Re: BiS or WiS?

Postby Digren » Sat Sep 25, 2010 12:33 pm

ALL of my sets (except vanity sets) are hit-capped, or very, very close.


Then you're often just wasting itemization points, no different than if you decided to enchant spirit.

To each his own I guess.
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Re: BiS or WiS?

Postby Feanorion » Sat Sep 25, 2010 1:24 pm

Digren wrote:
ALL of my sets (except vanity sets) are hit-capped, or very, very close.


Then you're often just wasting itemization points, no different than if you decided to enchant spirit.

To each his own I guess.


Spirit is clearly equivalent to hit rating. :? :shock: :lol:
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Re: BiS or WiS?

Postby fuzzygeek » Sat Sep 25, 2010 10:26 pm

Feanorion wrote:Spirit is clearly equivalent to hit rating. :? :shock: :lol:


No, but you're missing or failing to address the main thrust of his argument: wasted itemization points.
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Re: BiS or WiS?

Postby Feanorion » Sun Sep 26, 2010 11:32 am

fuzzygeek wrote:
Feanorion wrote:Spirit is clearly equivalent to hit rating. :? :shock: :lol:


No, but you're missing or failing to address the main thrust of his argument: wasted itemization points.


Being at or near hit cap is NEVER wasted itemization points. If I were rocking 300 hit rating? Different story.
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Re: BiS or WiS?

Postby majiben » Sun Sep 26, 2010 10:43 pm

Feanorion wrote:
fuzzygeek wrote:
Feanorion wrote:Spirit is clearly equivalent to hit rating. :? :shock: :lol:


No, but you're missing or failing to address the main thrust of his argument: wasted itemization points.


Being at or near hit cap is NEVER wasted itemization points. If I were rocking 300 hit rating? Different story.
It quite clearly is, if you're gearing for 8% hit from personal sources and there is a draenei around. 40 wasted rating is two gems; in terms of pure numbers, not gemming two slots is never wasted itemization if you juggle your hit rating properly instead in your scenario.
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Re: BiS or WiS?

Postby Feanorion » Mon Oct 04, 2010 4:55 pm

majiben wrote:
Feanorion wrote:Being at or near hit cap is NEVER wasted itemization points. If I were rocking 300 hit rating? Different story.


It quite clearly is, if you're gearing for 8% hit from personal sources and there is a draenei around. 40 wasted rating is two gems; in terms of pure numbers, not gemming two slots is never wasted itemization if you juggle your hit rating properly instead in your scenario.


If there is a Dranei around, I will be killing and tea-bagging him.

I'm a Blood Elf paladin.

Horde.

Now--- you were saying?
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Re: BiS or WiS?

Postby Barathorn » Wed Oct 06, 2010 2:25 am

I think in a nutshell the general line is that for the content you are facing Feanorian it is simply not necessary currently [the new patch may change this?] for you to be at the hit cap and as such you are wasting itemisation points.

As Digren said, to each their own. You have been advised by the people who have studied this in detail so if you feel different to them that is fine, every one is entitled to their own opinion , but please now stop picking at the scab to attempt to get a reaction, it isn't big or clever.

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