BiS or WiS?

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Re: BiS or WiS?

Postby Digren » Mon Sep 13, 2010 10:42 am

Feanorion wrote:This thread got derailed and side-tracked, but the focus is this: which should a paladin tank in ICC working towards the guild's first LK kill use: Armsman or either +18 Stamina or +240 Armor (assuming no one is an engineer) to their gloves? My position is that Armsman should never be used under any circumstances; if threat is needed and survivability is not an issue, Hit Rating is a better threat choice (in conjunction with Accuracy on weapon instead of Blade Ward). On content challenging to our guild, either Stamina or Armor would always be better than Armsman.

I've easily reached the hit cap in my threat set, thus making Armsman a better choice. You're blanket absolute statement is not valid.

Also, Blade Ward sucks. Blood Draining is the best survivability enchant.
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Re: BiS or WiS?

Postby Digren » Mon Sep 13, 2010 10:49 am

Feanorion wrote:But while we're at it, can you back up your claim that going from 200 to 260 Hit is only a 2% threat increase? Because I see much more marked improvements with less of a variance in Hit.

It's relatively easy to read off the threat analysis charts:

http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/ ... ic#p521995

60 points of hit rating under the cap provides about 200 TPS increase. For a tank putting out about 10k TPS that represents a 2% increase.
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Re: BiS or WiS?

Postby Feanorion » Mon Sep 13, 2010 12:17 pm

Digren wrote:
Feanorion wrote:But while we're at it, can you back up your claim that going from 200 to 260 Hit is only a 2% threat increase? Because I see much more marked improvements with less of a variance in Hit.

It's relatively easy to read off the threat analysis charts:

http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/ ... ic#p521995

60 points of hit rating under the cap provides about 200 TPS increase. For a tank putting out about 10k TPS that represents a 2% increase.


Thank you to the past few posters. I had assumed that Armsman was a bad enchant under any and all circumstances. Although I personally would not ever use this enchant, I do see why others might choose to do so.
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Re: BiS or WiS?

Postby theckhd » Mon Sep 13, 2010 5:51 pm

Digren wrote:
Feanorion wrote:But while we're at it, can you back up your claim that going from 200 to 260 Hit is only a 2% threat increase? Because I see much more marked improvements with less of a variance in Hit.

It's relatively easy to read off the threat analysis charts:

http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/ ... ic#p521995

60 points of hit rating under the cap provides about 200 TPS increase. For a tank putting out about 10k TPS that represents a 2% increase.


There's a simpler line of reasoning for why 2% hit should be a 2% threat increase. Assume you put out X DPS and Y TPS when hit capped. If we drop you 2% below hit cap, only 98% of your attacks connect. If we assume that these misses are spread out evenly across all of your different attacks (a fair assumption for data sets long enough to be considered statistically signifigant), then your DPS and threat outputs simply drop by 2% to 0.98Y.

That said, there's a few holes in that reasoning. For one thing, some of your damage sources can't miss, which should reduce the effectiveness of hit. And increasing from 90% to 92% hit is a bigger relative increase than 98% to 100%. But those effects are going to be on the order of tenths of percents.

In either case, going straight to the numbers like you did gives the most compelling argument.
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Re: BiS or WiS?

Postby Mert » Fri Sep 17, 2010 7:58 pm

Feanorion wrote:Why would I lazily rely upon a rogue or hunter to provide threat for me when all I have to do is hit-cap and not have to worry about it?


I find this line of reasoning very confusing - it's like saying a Holy Paladin shouldn't rely on an Innervate later in a fight to supply them with mana, that a DPS shouldn't rely on having a Draenei in their group so should gear for the Hit Cap without Heroic Presence, that a Feral Druid shouldn't rely on getting Hysteria for a damage boost, that a high-critting caster shouldn't rely on receiving Focus Magic... and so on.

There are dozens of tools available to maximise the performance of your raid team and both Misdirection and Tricks of the Trade are among them. It's not laziness to expect them as a means to better raiding performance, it's simply common sense.

I mean sure, if you're going to sit and autoswing while you go AFK and make yourself a sandwich then yeah, it's lazy to rely on others generating threat. But if you're doing a proper rotation and have geared in such a way to maximise your key role in the fight (be that survival, threat, or gimmicks like Heroic Anub) then you're not relying on MD, you're using it to make you even better at doing whatever it is you're there to do.

Besides, there are a number of fights where a Misdirect can be used to completely alter your strategy - 25-man Heroic Halion is a good example, where you can use one tank to take both Halion and the large elemental without suffering a DPS loss or additional damage that would arise from the boss tank moving to gain threat on the add as it spawns (it's immune to taunts, so it would require physically picking it up).

I'm not having a go or trying to make you look bad but it strikes me as an odd approach to have toward those abilities is all.
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Re: BiS or WiS?

Postby Feanorion » Fri Sep 17, 2010 8:35 pm

Mert wrote:
Feanorion wrote:Why would I lazily rely upon a rogue or hunter to provide threat for me when all I have to do is hit-cap and not have to worry about it?


I find this line of reasoning very confusing - it's like saying---

1) a Holy Paladin shouldn't rely on an Innervate later in a fight to supply them with mana---
2) that a DPS shouldn't rely on having a Draenei in their group so should gear for the Hit Cap without Heroic Presence---
3) that a Feral Druid shouldn't rely on getting Hysteria for a damage boost---
4) that a high-critting caster shouldn't rely on receiving Focus Magic... and so on.

5) There are dozens of tools available to maximise the performance of your raid team and both Misdirection and Tricks of the Trade are among them. It's not laziness to expect them as a means to better raiding performance, it's simply common sense.

6) Besides, there are a number of fights where a Misdirect can be used to completely alter your strategy - 25-man Heroic Halion is a good example, where you can use one tank to take both Halion and the large elemental without suffering a DPS loss or additional damage that would arise from the boss tank moving to gain threat on the add as it spawns (it's immune to taunts, so it would require physically picking it up).

I'm not having a go or trying to make you look bad but it strikes me as an odd approach to have toward those abilities is all.


1) And if that Holy Paladin winds up in a group without an innervate?
2) And if the Dranei calls off for that night's raid, what are they going to do? Besides miss or be resisted?
3) And if there is no DK present?
4) And if the high-critting caster is not a mage, and the mages (magi?) use a FM circle?

5) Relying on someone else to consistently provide you with something you are capable of bringing for yourself is a recipe for disaster.

6) Using them for a specific point in a specific encounter? Of course! But to just ignore threat by letting Hit Rating dwindle to nearly nothing, because you know (or think you know) that you will be fed MT's and MD's consistently is just laziness. I gear and plan for the worst case scenario. I stack Armor and Health because I hate random chance deciding my fate to any degree greater than necessary.
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Re: BiS or WiS?

Postby Mert » Fri Sep 17, 2010 9:01 pm

Well obviously it depends on your guild, how you recruit, how you set up your raid teams and so forth but at least the vast majority of "high-end" raiding guilds will ensure that those "worst case" scenarios you describe simply do not happen. In my guild, for example, there will always be an Innervate because we simply do not raid without Druids. If the fight is sufficiently long and mana-intensive that the Paladins will require an Innervate then those Druids are instructed not to give it to anyone else but their assigned Paladin when they ask for it. We have enough Draenei in our guild to ensure that at least three of our groups benefit from Heroic Presence - many of our DPS don't need the buff simply because they have sufficient Hit on their gear but those that can will generally gear for 1% lower than the cap because it affords them more DPS stats. As a result, our rDPS is higher. There is always a Death Knight present in our 25-man raids, and so on.

It's not a recipe for disaster at all - in fact, it's all just a part of min/maxing your raid performance. On a personal scale, you design your gear, enhancements and spec around what you know will be required of you. On a more macro scale, you run your guild in such a fashion as to never have to consider whether we have a DK that night because we simply always have at least one. If we find that we're in a situation where that's not the case, we will recruit a DK.

Now I realise not every guild operates like that - if your raid composition changes a lot or if you PUG often then of course it makes sense to have the gear available to account for anything you're missing. However, when you find that you're not missing it then you're operating suboptimally by continuing to use that gear despite the fact that you have the tools you need to not do so available.

I think you'll find it very difficult to find a decent progression raiding guild that, for example, tells their DPS to gear for the hit cap "in case the Draenei isn't there tonight". Or to give a more relevant example - you'll find it equally rare to find a guild that instructs their MT to give up survivability for threat stats in a progression encounter because a Rogue might not Tricks or a Hunter might press the wrong button and MD a Totem. If you want to truly maximise your raid's performance then you simply must organise it to make use of every tool you have available to help you - in essence, you assume the best-case, not the worst-case and you adjust only after it becomes apparent that you can't have your best-case any longer (maybe your Hunter's internet goes down, so then you ask your tank to consider putting in a DPS trinket or whatever).
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Re: BiS or WiS?

Postby Meloree » Fri Sep 17, 2010 11:17 pm

Mert wrote:It's not a recipe for disaster at all - in fact, it's all just a part of min/maxing your raid performance.


I have to agree with Mert. You use all the tools available to you, and optimize around them.

Do I expect every hunter in the raid to MD before every boss pull? Yes, absolutely. It's free, it would be stupid not to, and it guarantees that all DPS can open up instantly, in complete safety. Do I expect those hunters to MD on cooldown? No, it costs them GCDs and DPS, and all tanks, even in full survival gear and spec, are capable of holding sustained threat, even over extremely high end DPS.

Do I expect that a blood DK will use Hysteria on the optimal target, and co-ordinate it such that it's used in conjuction with relevant cooldowns? Yes, absolutely. It's stupid for him to use it on himself if there's a better target around, RDPS always trumps PDPS.

Do I expect that our casters are optimized around having a draenei in the group? Yes. We have enough that they can rely on that. I also expect them to be able to adjust if crazy things happen.

Do I expect tanks to think "survive first, worry about threat after survival is assured"? Yes, absolutely. Dead tanks don't do anyone any good. Tricks and MDs can solve threat problems. That said, Blizzard has balanced WotLK so that you never have to make that choice if you're playing properly. Tanks simply don't lose to DPS at sustained threat, barring gimmick fights.

Most of these things aren't even excessive min/maxing, they're just bog-standard examples of good practices, and good play.
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Re: BiS or WiS?

Postby Feanorion » Sat Sep 18, 2010 1:08 pm

Mert wrote:Well obviously it depends on your guild, how you recruit, how you set up your raid teams and so forth but at least the vast majority of "high-end" raiding guilds will ensure that those "worst case" scenarios you describe simply do not happen. In my guild, for example, there will always be an Innervate because we simply do not raid without Druids. If the fight is sufficiently long and mana-intensive that the Paladins will require an Innervate then those Druids are instructed not to give it to anyone else but their assigned Paladin when they ask for it. We have enough Draenei in our guild to ensure that at least three of our groups benefit from Heroic Presence - many of our DPS don't need the buff simply because they have sufficient Hit on their gear but those that can will generally gear for 1% lower than the cap because it affords them more DPS stats. As a result, our rDPS is higher. There is always a Death Knight present in our 25-man raids, and so on.

It's not a recipe for disaster at all - in fact, it's all just a part of min/maxing your raid performance. On a personal scale, you design your gear, enhancements and spec around what you know will be required of you. On a more macro scale, you run your guild in such a fashion as to never have to consider whether we have a DK that night because we simply always have at least one. If we find that we're in a situation where that's not the case, we will recruit a DK.

Now I realise not every guild operates like that - if your raid composition changes a lot or if you PUG often then of course it makes sense to have the gear available to account for anything you're missing. However, when you find that you're not missing it then you're operating suboptimally by continuing to use that gear despite the fact that you have the tools you need to not do so available.

I think you'll find it very difficult to find a decent progression raiding guild that, for example, tells their DPS to gear for the hit cap "in case the Draenei isn't there tonight". Or to give a more relevant example - you'll find it equally rare to find a guild that instructs their MT to give up survivability for threat stats in a progression encounter because a Rogue might not Tricks or a Hunter might press the wrong button and MD a Totem. If you want to truly maximise your raid's performance then you simply must organise it to make use of every tool you have available to help you - in essence, you assume the best-case, not the worst-case and you adjust only after it becomes apparent that you can't have your best-case any longer (maybe your Hunter's internet goes down, so then you ask your tank to consider putting in a DPS trinket or whatever).


Try organizing 10-man's on a very low-pop RP server. We have to make do with who we have online. Also, I'M A FREAKING BLOOD ELF! HOW MANY DRANEI DO I GET TO RAID WITH!??! :lol: (yes, that was meant light-heartedly, not combatively). On a more serious note, since our raid make-up is always in doubt, and my girlfriend's mage is the only one I am absolutely certain will be there, I do have to plan around the worst-case, and I can never afford to assume that tricks and/or misdirects will be available. I can never assume that Bloodlust/heroism will be available. I can not assume that a Holy Paladin will be available to provide Sacred Shield, so I have gotten used to keeping it up on myself, unless the other tank has the boss during a tank-swap.

Why should you care?

Because there are a LOT more guilds like mine than there are of yours, and Blizzard needs to keep the non-high-end guilds/players happy and interested at least as much as they do the top-enders.
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Re: BiS or WiS?

Postby Fridmarr » Sat Sep 18, 2010 1:17 pm

I doubt that there are many guilds that raid regularly without both a hunter and a rogue. Blizzard created redundancy among skills for a reason, I think they've covered themselves sufficiently. It's a tough balancing act, if they increase everyone's abilities so that they perform as well as without them, then there's an essence of group cooperation, something central to an MMO, that is lost. At the same time, they have to be careful so that guilds that can form balanced groups don't have a crazy advantage.
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Re: BiS or WiS?

Postby Xfighter » Sat Sep 18, 2010 9:21 pm

Feanorion wrote:Try organizing 10-man's on a very low-pop RP server.

See, this information could have probably helped earlier on in the threat, seeing as most of the posters have been referring to 25-mans, and yet you now are discussing 10-man's.

You seem to be sticking up for the whole "maximize personal potential", and only relying on what you yourself can do to solve whatever problem arises. For the other tank, threat could be a problem, and the enchant is essentially a cheap-cost solution stat wise. Trading 18 stamina (or w/e armor) for some parry and 2% threat may seem reasonable to him, given his situation.


You have been shooting down other people's comments, as you basically say they don't suit your standards/play style. Many people have said things that could be done differently to solve both problems, and some have talked about why the enchant may be suitable, yet you've disagreed with their very valid statements, so why can't your co-tank have the same flexibility to choose his own play-style? Surely if you disagree with some of the solutions posted, he can disagree with your reasoning on something so small as a glove enchant? At this point in the game micro-managing someone's reasonable enchant is pointless in my opinion, as so many other factors can make either one better given the situation, and yet neither one is powerful enough to make a difference in the outcome of a fight anyways.

Meh.
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Re: BiS or WiS?

Postby knaughty » Sun Sep 19, 2010 12:19 am

It's hard to ignore the jackassery in the early part of the thread from the OP, but I'll try not to deliver a broadside.
Digren wrote:A tank can choose to hurt their own survivability to become "self-sufficient" on threat, not relying on anyone else in their raid as you choose to. However, other people in your raid can help you with your threat. It is relatively difficult for others in your raid to help you with your survivability more than they already do (i.e. guardian spirit, shields). When pushing cutting-edge content, receiving an early tricks and a mis-direct or two has insignificant impact on the overall raid DPS but allows you to focus on survivability, the job you are ultimately there to accomplish.

THIS

You can trade survival for threat so you don't need to twiddle with the raid's threat. But you can't twiddle with the raid to get you more survivability, other than a small number of external CDs.

LK-hard is far more of a survivability check than it is a threat check, and the small number of TPS chokes in the encounter can easily be dealt with by using tricks, MD and Salvation.

If you're gemming or enchanting threat for LK-hard, you're doing it wrong. Stupid pride related to generating enough TPS solo is just that - stupid.

I'd also point out that ignoring avoidance at LK-hard will also get you killed and wipe the raid. Gearing priority for the fight, in the opinion of someone who's actually killed it, is:

EH > Avoidance >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> everything else.

Avoidance is valuable enough that I'm willing to socket agil/stam gems to get decent stamina bonuses. We regularly wipe at LK hard to a long string of un-dodged hits - five or six hits in a row will smash down at 85k health bear-tank with two holy paladins on him full-time.

Personally, the first thing I'd do in OP's position is drop mining and pick up engineering. In fact.... I did. Armour enchant + rocket boots for defile and swapping sides instantly kicks the shit out of 60 stam.

JC is OK, but wouldn't be my first choice after it was nerfed.
Feanorion wrote:1) And if that Holy Paladin winds up in a group without an innervate?
2) And if the Dranei calls off for that night's raid, what are they going to do? Besides miss or be resisted?
3) And if there is no DK present?
4) And if the high-critting caster is not a mage, and the mages (magi?) use a FM circle?

1-3: Fix recruitment policies and procedures. You did claim to be in a guild working on LK-hard. Assuming you're not the 3,077th guild working on it, but an actual hard-core guild, 1-3 should be impossible.

For LK hard we have one paladin who consistently gets 3-4 Innervates, because his throughput is fucking insane if we can keep him fed with mana.

Build your guild right so you have a sensible raid makeup, then use your fucking tools. MD & Tricks are things in-raid that let you increase your survivability, because you can remove threat.
5) Relying on someone else to consistently provide you with something you are capable of bringing for yourself is a recipe for disaster.

Only you can bring survivability. Gearing for threat costs you survivability.

Expecting your raid not to be you plus 24 druids is perfectly sensible. If for some reason your guild has no reliable hunters and rogues fix that.

NB: It doesn't take many. We got our kill with two hunters and one rogue. That's about the minimum for a progression kill.
Mert wrote:Besides, there are a number of fights where a Misdirect can be used to completely alter your strategy - 25-man Heroic Halion is a good example, where you can use one tank to take both Halion and the large elemental without suffering a DPS loss or additional damage that would arise from the boss tank moving to gain threat on the add as it spawns (it's immune to taunts, so it would require physically picking it up).

Glyphed AS for the win. First time I've ever used that glyph, terribly powerful for the upstairs tank. I back up with MD as well, in case AS misses, of course.
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Re: BiS or WiS?

Postby knaughty » Sun Sep 19, 2010 12:29 am

Oh fucking goddamit.

Just noticed he's talking about 10-man-RP-with-my-GF ICC.

Can you make it clear what the hell your background is before you ask for advice? You've scored a pile of advice from people talking from LK-25-hard perspective, which you've ignored.

Seriously - it's WotLK 10-man. Who cares what your best-in-slot is....
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Re: BiS or WiS?

Postby Feanorion » Sun Sep 19, 2010 8:13 am

Xfighter wrote:
Feanorion wrote:Try organizing 10-man's on a very low-pop RP server.

See, this information could have probably helped earlier on in the threat, seeing as most of the posters have been referring to 25-mans, and yet you now are discussing 10-man's.

You seem to be sticking up for the whole "maximize personal potential", and only relying on what you yourself can do to solve whatever problem arises. For the other tank, threat could be a problem, and the enchant is essentially a cheap-cost solution stat wise. Trading 18 stamina (or w/e armor) for some parry and 2% threat may seem reasonable to him, given his situation.


You have been shooting down other people's comments, as you basically say they don't suit your standards/play style. Many people have said things that could be done differently to solve both problems, and some have talked about why the enchant may be suitable, yet you've disagreed with their very valid statements, so why can't your co-tank have the same flexibility to choose his own play-style? Surely if you disagree with some of the solutions posted, he can disagree with your reasoning on something so small as a glove enchant? At this point in the game micro-managing someone's reasonable enchant is pointless in my opinion, as so many other factors can make either one better given the situation, and yet neither one is powerful enough to make a difference in the outcome of a fight anyways.

Meh.


Did you miss this just a few posts up?

Feanorion wrote:Thank you to the past few posters. I had assumed that Armsman was a bad enchant under any and all circumstances. Although I personally would not ever use this enchant, I do see why others might choose to do so.
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Re: BiS or WiS?

Postby Feanorion » Sun Sep 19, 2010 8:25 am

knaughty wrote:You can trade survival for threat so you don't need to twiddle with the raid's threat. But you can't twiddle with the raid to get you more survivability, other than a small number of external CDs.1)

If you're gemming or enchanting threat for LK-hard, you're doing it wrong. Stupid pride related to generating enough TPS solo is just that - stupid.

(pasted from below) Only you can bring survivability. Gearing for threat costs you survivability.

2) I'd also point out that ignoring avoidance at LK-hard will also get you killed and wipe the raid. Gearing priority for the fight, in the opinion of someone who's actually killed it, is:

EH > Avoidance >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> everything else.

3) Avoidance is valuable enough that I'm willing to socket agil/stam gems to get decent stamina bonuses. We regularly wipe at LK hard to a long string of un-dodged hits - five or six hits in a row will smash down at 85k health bear-tank with two holy paladins on him full-time.

4) Personally, the first thing I'd do in OP's position is drop mining and pick up engineering. In fact.... I did. Armour enchant + rocket boots for defile and swapping sides instantly kicks the shit out of 60 stam.

5) Expecting your raid not to be you plus 24 druids is perfectly sensible. If for some reason your guild has no reliable hunters and rogues fix that.

6) You did claim to be in a guild working on LK-hard.


1) I'm the one gemming/enchanting for survivability. My friend is the one gemming/enchanting for threat.

2) I gem/enchant for EH over all other options. If a trinket does not have armor or stamina on it, it stays in my bank.

3) I also use Shifting Dreadstones in sockets with suitably high stamina socket bonuses. Armor, crit, and dodge (in minute doses) make me tingly.

4) If we weren't so close to Cata, I would. But mining will be invaluable after the climb back to the upcoming end-game.

5) If we could, we already would have.

6) As your next post shows that you've noticed, I made no such claim. Ever. Anywhere. Not sure where you got that idea.
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