BiS or WiS?

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Re: BiS or WiS?

Postby Feanorion » Sun Sep 12, 2010 10:57 am

Fridmarr wrote:
Feanorion wrote:
Grehn|Skipjack wrote:Technically, you're both wrong. BiS is the 885 Armor from Engineering.


<sigh> There's one in every crowd. I didn't think it necessary to exclude an engineering-specific enchant, especially since I linked my Armory which shows me to be a JC/miner. Thank you for the douchnozzle jackassery. I feel right at home.

I understand your frustration with his answer, but it wasn't out of line. Your response however, is out of line.


How so? I have seen the "f" word dropped, and no mod response. Neither word I used was anywhere nearly as offensive.
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Re: BiS or WiS?

Postby Feanorion » Sun Sep 12, 2010 12:09 pm

This thread got derailed and side-tracked, but the focus is this: which should a paladin tank in ICC working towards the guild's first LK kill use: Armsman or either +18 Stamina or +240 Armor (assuming no one is an engineer) to their gloves? My position is that Armsman should never be used under any circumstances; if threat is needed and survivability is not an issue, Hit Rating is a better threat choice (in conjunction with Accuracy on weapon instead of Blade Ward). On content challenging to our guild, either Stamina or Armor would always be better than Armsman.

Yea?

Nay?

Why?
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Re: BiS or WiS?

Postby Fridmarr » Sun Sep 12, 2010 12:17 pm

Feanorion wrote:How so? I have seen the "f" word dropped, and no mod response. Neither word I used was anywhere nearly as offensive.

Personal attacks cross the line. This isn't up for debate, if you have any further questions, they should be done through Private Messages.
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Re: BiS or WiS?

Postby Meloree » Sun Sep 12, 2010 12:18 pm

Are you trolling? I answered this - in detail - but I'll attempt to rephrase.

If you want 2% more threat from stacking hit, you need roughly 2% more hit. That's about 60 rating worth of hit - either 90 stamina, or 60 avoidance rating, or some combination. Armsman, on the other hand, for said 2% threat, costs you 18 stamina or 240 armor. Significantly less than gem-trades for the same result.

It's always a question of opportunity costs. I've never used the enchant, I don't think it's ever necessary to gem or enchant for threat. Improving your play will generally yield better results. But if you're in a situation where you're struggling for threat, it's a very very cheap way to get that threat.
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Re: BiS or WiS?

Postby Navan » Sun Sep 12, 2010 12:23 pm

Feanorion wrote:Armsman is only useful in the exceedingly rare case of a dps pulling threat at 112% or 132% (melee or range) and never going above that threshold.

Seems like you already have an answer to what Armsman is useful for. Seriously it all depends upon your guild/raid.
Is the LK beating the crap out of you? Enchant Survivability.
Is someone pulling aggro off of you? Enchant Threat.

You're not going to get a direct objective answer, too many things depend upon how you and your OT tank, how your healers and DPS preform their roles and how quick people can react to things like enrage, or defile.
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Re: BiS or WiS?

Postby Feanorion » Sun Sep 12, 2010 12:41 pm

Fridmarr wrote:
Feanorion wrote:How so? I have seen the "f" word dropped, and no mod response. Neither word I used was anywhere nearly as offensive.

Personal attacks cross the line. This isn't up for debate, if you have any further questions, they should be done through Private Messages.


Fair enough.
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Re: BiS or WiS?

Postby fuzzygeek » Sun Sep 12, 2010 12:54 pm

Feanorion wrote:This thread got derailed and side-tracked, but the focus is this: which should a paladin tank in ICC working towards the guild's first LK kill use: Armsman or either +18 Stamina or +240 Armor (assuming no one is an engineer) to their gloves? My position is that Armsman should never be used under any circumstances; if threat is needed and survivability is not an issue, Hit Rating is a better threat choice (in conjunction with Accuracy on weapon instead of Blade Ward). On content challenging to our guild, either Stamina or Armor would always be better than Armsman.

Yea?

Nay?

Why?


Not enough information. What is the role of the paladin tank during the encounter? Why is the raid failing the encounter? What is the point of failure with the raid? With the tank?

Many choices are viable; some are better for an exact role or handling a specific sequence of events. No enchant is make-or-break, and I've tanked LK accidentally wearing my DPS gloves.

The add tank might benefit from armsman for a very minor gain in burst tps upon spawn; this should not be necessary because if the rest of the raid is doing their job, adds are being tricks/MDed to the tank. This is not being lazy or relying on someone else to "do your job" any more than expecting healers to heal you is having to rely on someone else to help you: tricks/MD are core game mechanics, and rejecting them are just so much ego waving.

Which is not to say you can't do fights without rogues or hunters, which many of us have.

Generally I would argue there are very, very few edge cases where armsman makes any kind of viable sense for any window of time larger than ten or fifteen seconds. Given its extremely limited usefulness, I would argue that something that increases threat by increasing dps is far more useful over the course of a 6-15 minute fight.
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Re: BiS or WiS?

Postby Feanorion » Sun Sep 12, 2010 12:54 pm

Meloree wrote:Are you trolling? I answered this - in detail - but I'll attempt to rephrase.

If you want 2% more threat from stacking hit, you need roughly 2% more hit. That's about 60 rating worth of hit - either 90 stamina, or 60 avoidance rating, or some combination. Armsman, on the other hand, for said 2% threat, costs you 18 stamina or 240 armor. Significantly less than gem-trades for the same result.

It's always a question of opportunity costs. I've never used the enchant, I don't think it's ever necessary to gem or enchant for threat. Improving your play will generally yield better results. But if you're in a situation where you're struggling for threat, it's a very very cheap way to get that threat.


The re-direct was not aimed at you, but rather at others who have not yet posted. But while we're at it, can you back up your claim that going from 200 to 260 Hit is only a 2% threat increase? Because I see much more marked improvements with less of a variance in Hit.
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Re: BiS or WiS?

Postby Alandrek » Sun Sep 12, 2010 9:26 pm

Feanorion wrote:This thread got derailed and side-tracked, but the focus is this: which should a paladin tank in ICC working towards the guild's first LK kill use: Armsman or either +18 Stamina or +240 Armor (assuming no one is an engineer) to their gloves? My position is that Armsman should never be used under any circumstances.


Armsman is actually more threat than any other glove enchant option or any weapon enchant (with the possible exception of Berserking). So with that in mind, if you consistently have sustained threat issues then Armsman would be your best choice if you wanted to solve the issue on your own.

However, in a group play situation you can't simply ignore possible solutions others in the group can offer. Liberal use of Tricks of the Trade and Misdirect, as well as intelligent use of Hand of Salvation, can address any sustained threat issues far better than Armsman can. Given this, it's generally better to gear around survival for any content that has a reasonable chance of killing you unexpectedly - especially for encounters like The Lich King that have a generous berserk timer.
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Re: BiS or WiS?

Postby Barathorn » Mon Sep 13, 2010 12:47 am

Ok, keep the discussion on topic and focused. If you can't play nicely I will just lock threads. If you continue to post in a manner that I find in breach of the TOC then I will simply ban you.

I trust this is clear enough for everyone?

Carry on.
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Re: BiS or WiS?

Postby Dantriges » Mon Sep 13, 2010 3:33 am

fuzzygeek wrote: This is not being lazy or relying on someone else to "do your job" any more than expecting healers to heal you is having to rely on someone else to help you: tricks/MD are core game mechanics, and rejecting them are just so much ego waving.


If you get them. Rogues hate it to give up tricks for their rogue mate or if their mate is tricksing you. I have met a lot of hunters who don´t want to spend the time for md. Hm, one particularly bad one mded the totems when he was high on threat... :roll:
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Re: BiS or WiS?

Postby Feanorion » Mon Sep 13, 2010 6:24 am

Barathorn wrote:Ok, keep the discussion on topic and focused. If you can't play nicely I will just lock threads. If you continue to post in a manner that I find in breach of the TOC then I will simply ban you.

I trust this is clear enough for everyone?

Carry on.


Was this directed at any particular poster and/or post?
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Re: BiS or WiS?

Postby Barathorn » Mon Sep 13, 2010 7:53 am

It was merely a general warning/piece of advice for anyone who can't play nicely in the gearing forums :D . Just in case anyone was unsure/uncertain of how we work here.

Hope that makes it crystal clear for everyone.

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Re: BiS or WiS?

Postby inthedrops » Mon Sep 13, 2010 9:47 am

Feanorion wrote:This thread got derailed and side-tracked, but the focus is this: which should a paladin tank in ICC working towards the guild's first LK kill use: Armsman or either +18 Stamina or +240 Armor (assuming no one is an engineer) to their gloves? My position is that Armsman should never be used under any circumstances; if threat is needed and survivability is not an issue, Hit Rating is a better threat choice (in conjunction with Accuracy on weapon instead of Blade Ward). On content challenging to our guild, either Stamina or Armor would always be better than Armsman.


Here's my take on your question/arguments.

I believe your point is that if threat is a concern, then getting more hit rating is better to do than to skip the stam/armor enchant and get the armsman enchant. One person then posted that the amount of hit rating required to equal that provided by armsman would be about 2%, of which you seemed to disagree.

Meloree stated:
If you want 2% more threat from stacking hit, you need roughly 2% more hit


I trust this statement as it's sensible (it makes sense that 2% hit would give roughly 2% more threat over the course of a lengthy fight). Assuming still under hit cap of course.

You replied by saying:
Because I see much more marked improvements with less of a variance in Hit.


Here then is how I understand your armsman arguments when threat is a concern:
1. You don't need 2% hit to get the same benefit as armsman. You can get less hit and benefit equally.
2. Get +hit rating instead of arsman.

My question for you then, on point 1, how much hit rating do I need to equal that of armsman? Meloree said roughly 2%. What do you say and why?

On point number 2, it was mentioned that 60 hit rating gives about 2% hit. And it was explained that in terms of ilvl allocation of gems/gear/enchants, that 2% armsman is one of the cheapest threat boosting options out there. For example, the amount of strength required to gain 2% threat would cost much more ilvl points than simply using that enchant. Keeping in mind of course the ilvl of something like 18 stam is less than one blue gem.

Here's an example of why armsman starts to look like a decent enchant when comparing to your suggestion of gearing for hit instead. And lets assume we favor the 18 stam enchant for the moment. Let's assume 264 gear since you said "for tanks working on ICC". Now lets pretend that we're a tank who is having threat problems and is at 5% hit. In his bags he can swap a few things around to get more hit. He has:

Necks:
Noose of Malachite
or
Bile-Encrusted Medallion

To go with the hit neck would mean the following stat changes:
+46 hit rating
+12 defense
+12 dodge
-672 armor
-21 strength

I'm sure this would result in a threat increase. However, you're giving up 672 armor and 21 strength and only gaining tiny amounts of avoidance (in addition to the threat).

Ok, so most tanks wouldn't be happy with that kind of trade off!!!

I realize I might have picked a drastic example but what I've noticed over time is that when gear is itemized with +hit, it is always going to lack in other critical stats like armor, strength, and expertise.

Eventually you might decide that giving up 18 stamina or 240 armor isn't as bad of a tradeoff as it seems when you consider the other gear is allows you to CONTINUE wearing.

If you're thinking about gemming for hit, well think about it carefully. The same rules apply. Most tanks would never gem a straight +20 hit. They'll use a +10 hit/+15 stam gem instead. Assuming meloree is correct, it would take almost 6 of those hybrid gems to equal 60 hit rating. But let's pretend you used only 3 in some yellow slots in order to keep socket bonuses. And let's assume a 6/9/9 stam bonus from gemming that color:

If gemmed straight stamina: 30+30+30 = 90 stamina.
If gemmed hit/stam hybrid: 15+15+15+6+6+9 = 66 stamina.

So you're still giving up 24 stamina and that's only in exchange for 30 hit rating. That's half of the 60 or so required to get the same threat boost from armsman (assuming we all agree with Meloree that 2% hit roughly equals 2% threat)

That's the point people are trying to make about the armsman enchant. YES, it's crappy!! No disagreement from any of us. And YES threat isn't *supposed* to be a problem, even when tanking things *well*. But it shouldn't be dismissed flat out. And there ARE occasions where threat can be problematic. It really does take more concentration to keep your dps happy as they DPS scale up in the high level content.

I'll give my personal story. We have LK 25H on farm. I tank LK during all phases. A warrior tank does the Shamblers and Soaking. In order to make his job easier, he keeps Vigilance on me for the ENTIRE fight. He also hits me with Safeguard a couple of times in P2. I'm also specced into Aura Mastery and lose most of my threat talents to get there. And I occasionally use glyphed Salvation on myself during emergencies. That's a constant 10% threat loss, with the occasional additional threat loss in P2 and P3. You better freaking believe that threat was a HUGE problem for me when learning the encounter. The way LK moves, avoiding the shadow traps, running away from defiles, all of that reduces the amount of time I am in melee range of him. And it has a huge impact on my threat generation. Guess what enchant I had on my gloves? Armsman. I believe I was at roughly 4% to 5% hit but probably had a Draenai. It was only after we killed him, and I got a few more upgrades did I remove the armsman enchant from my LK tanking gloves. It served me well there until I got good at the fight and got some better gear options to swap in (like the 277 tier gloves)

Lastly, your original question appeared to be "Which of the two is better, 18 stam or 240 armor". My answer is simple. I don't care about the theory craft and don't know which is better. But I know which I prefer. 18 stam all the way. I prefer it because it allows me to be lazy. I don't have to worry about having a pair of gloves for melee bosses and a pair of gloves for magic bosses. I just throw the 18 stam on all my gloves and I'm good to go. *IF* I were an engineer, then I'd start troubling myself with that enchant as it would be a no brainer.

In Conclusion:
The reason people say Armsman is a crappy enchant is because it goes with the assumption that threat isn't supposed to be a problem. And when threat is a problem, something is being done *wrong* that should be addressed. E.g. fix the root problem not the symptom. But there are cases when the root problem is not something easily fixed, such as my LK explanation.
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Re: BiS or WiS?

Postby Digren » Mon Sep 13, 2010 10:40 am

Feanorion wrote:Without looking at my Armory, you can not possibly comment on my gearing, let alone the other tank, whose armory I did not link.

My gem and enchant guide effectively comments on the gearing of thousands of tanks, of whose armory I have not viewed. Blanket guide questions - like the one you originally asked in this thread - should never require viewing armories. (Indeed, often people going to armories are being sidetracked from the fundamental guide issue under discussion.) For specific feedback based on a single person's situation, use the advice thread stickied at the top of the forum.

Rankings of red gems is likewise unrelated to any given person's gearing. If a red gem is required, an agility/stamina gem is the best survivability gem regardless of your situation. A strength/stamina is the best threat gem in the same situation.

A tank can choose to hurt their own survivability to become "self-sufficient" on threat, not relying on anyone else in their raid as you choose to. However, other people in your raid can help you with your threat. It is relatively difficult for others in your raid to help you with your survivability more than they already do (i.e. guardian spirit, shields). When pushing cutting-edge content, receiving an early tricks and a mis-direct or two has insignificant impact on the overall raid DPS but allows you to focus on survivability, the job you are ultimately there to accomplish.

Specific to the topic on hand, my best gloves use the engineering armor enchant. Were I not an engineer, I'd use the lesser armor enchant as it's effective health is higher than the stamina enchant. My second-best gloves are designed specifically as a threat piece so I can trivialize threat generation on trash and on bosses where I am not at risk of death. I use a hit/stamina gem and Armsman on that piece.
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