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BiS or WiS?

Postby Feanorion » Sat Sep 11, 2010 8:00 pm

I had a discussion with a guildmate recently about glove enchants. My position: BiS glove enchant is the old TBC era Glove Reinforcements (+240 armor), or the +18 stamina armor kit.

His position: Armsman is the BiS glove enchant.

My counter position: Armsman is WiS.

We are both paladin tanks. Who is right, who is wrong, and why? Thanks in advance.

My Armory: http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Farstriders&n=Feanorion
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Re: BiS or WiS?

Postby Leuthas » Sat Sep 11, 2010 8:07 pm

It's comparing two different types of enchants. Armsman is not about mitigation/avoidance, even though it has 10 parry - it's 10 parry. 240 armor and 18 stamina are EH enchants. I'd say he's just going for max threat, and you're going for more effective health.

It is similar to comparing something like Enchant Weapon - Blood Draining to Enchant Weapon - Accuracy; they serve two different purposes.
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Re: BiS or WiS?

Postby Feanorion » Sat Sep 11, 2010 8:18 pm

Leuthas wrote:It's comparing two different types of enchants. Armsman is not about mitigation/avoidance, even though it has 10 parry - it's 10 parry. 240 armor and 18 stamina are EH enchants. I'd say he's just going for max threat, and you're going for more effective health.

It is similar to comparing something like Enchant Weapon - Blood Draining to Enchant Weapon - Accuracy; they serve two different purposes.


Fair enough; but the debate then would be twofold: the wisdom of enchanting for threat over EH in ICC, and if Armsman is really contributing to "max threat"? The other tank is significantly under the hit cap. Even if one is aiming for max threat, wouldn't hit-capping (vs. Hit Rating of ~200) be more effective anyway?
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Re: BiS or WiS?

Postby Grehn|Skipjack » Sat Sep 11, 2010 8:29 pm

Technically, you're both wrong. BiS is the 885 Armor from Engineering.
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Re: BiS or WiS?

Postby Feanorion » Sat Sep 11, 2010 8:33 pm

Grehn|Skipjack wrote:Technically, you're both wrong. BiS is the 885 Armor from Engineering.


<sigh> There's one in every crowd. I didn't think it necessary to exclude an engineering-specific enchant, especially since I linked my Armory which shows me to be a JC/miner. Thank you for the viewpoint [we don't speak to each other like that in this forum - Bara]. I feel right at home.
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Re: BiS or WiS?

Postby Leuthas » Sat Sep 11, 2010 9:17 pm

Feanorion wrote:
Leuthas wrote:It's comparing two different types of enchants. Armsman is not about mitigation/avoidance, even though it has 10 parry - it's 10 parry. 240 armor and 18 stamina are EH enchants. I'd say he's just going for max threat, and you're going for more effective health.

It is similar to comparing something like Enchant Weapon - Blood Draining to Enchant Weapon - Accuracy; they serve two different purposes.


Fair enough; but the debate then would be twofold: the wisdom of enchanting for threat over EH in ICC, and if Armsman is really contributing to "max threat"? The other tank is significantly under the hit cap. Even if one is aiming for max threat, wouldn't hit-capping (vs. Hit Rating of ~200) be more effective anyway?

You're quite right in your regard, I am lazy and didn't even glance at the armory. There isn't much reason to enchant for threat when one of your greatest threat stats (ratings) is low. Assuming equal gear (which isn't the case unfortunately) it is mostly up to personal preference, threat vs. EH, except in cases of progression fights where EH is more effective than threat, or visa versa.
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You're actually clapping your thighs together with a force so powerful that you generate a sonic boom and the resulting electrostatic energy. Unfortunately, when you're silenced, you can't generate the audible force from your thunder thighs.

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Re: BiS or WiS?

Postby Pala » Sat Sep 11, 2010 11:36 pm

Feanorion wrote:
Grehn|Skipjack wrote:Technically, you're both wrong. BiS is the 885 Armor from Engineering.


<sigh> There's one in every crowd. I didn't think it necessary to exclude an engineering-specific enchant, especially since I linked my Armory which shows me to be a JC/miner. Thank you for the douchnozzle jackassery. I feel right at home.

Feanorion, take a step back please. Your original post and even the title is talking about BiS. It didn't say it had to be for what you currently have. That might have been your intent by linking your armory but for me personally I didn't read your post that way. Anyway, you may have been reading here for a while, maybe not. My point is give it time. Maintankadin is really one of the best forum resources I've found. There is some bickering in the Asylum but overall everyone seems to be pretty cool. There are also people from many countries so English might not be the best means to communicate for everyone. I think you'll find the forums to be very excellent.
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Re: BiS or WiS?

Postby Meloree » Sun Sep 12, 2010 12:20 am

Feanorion wrote:
Leuthas wrote:It's comparing two different types of enchants. Armsman is not about mitigation/avoidance, even though it has 10 parry - it's 10 parry. 240 armor and 18 stamina are EH enchants. I'd say he's just going for max threat, and you're going for more effective health.

It is similar to comparing something like Enchant Weapon - Blood Draining to Enchant Weapon - Accuracy; they serve two different purposes.


Fair enough; but the debate then would be twofold: the wisdom of enchanting for threat over EH in ICC, and if Armsman is really contributing to "max threat"? The other tank is significantly under the hit cap. Even if one is aiming for max threat, wouldn't hit-capping (vs. Hit Rating of ~200) be more effective anyway?


That's a question of opportunity cost. I haven't bothered to look at the armories specifically - and I'll note that I haven't ever used an Armsman enchant - but the opportunity cost for said tank, with his gear, to gain 2% threat from hit may be higher than 240 armor or 18 stamina. If he needs the threat, then that would make Armsman a better survival choice than taking the opportunity cost of gaining the hit elsewhere.

However, I would personally argue that Armsman is never required for threat - nor is expertise or hit - and that a correctly played protection paladin generates sufficient threat in gear chosen entirely for it's survival value that the conversation is moot. If you're having threat issues, investigate your rotation first, and your raid second.

In other words, I would suggest that Armsman is a generally suboptimal enchant in most situations. That doesn't make it suboptimal in all situations, for all players, and all raids.
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Re: BiS or WiS?

Postby ulushnar » Sun Sep 12, 2010 12:42 am

I wouldn't go as far as saying Armsman is WiS, that's just unnecessary hyperbole.

For example, this enchant, much worse.
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Re: BiS or WiS?

Postby Feanorion » Sun Sep 12, 2010 4:12 am

Meloree wrote:
Feanorion wrote:
Leuthas wrote:It's comparing two different types of enchants. Armsman is not about mitigation/avoidance, even though it has 10 parry - it's 10 parry. 240 armor and 18 stamina are EH enchants. I'd say he's just going for max threat, and you're going for more effective health.

It is similar to comparing something like Enchant Weapon - Blood Draining to Enchant Weapon - Accuracy; they serve two different purposes.


Fair enough; but the debate then would be twofold: the wisdom of enchanting for threat over EH in ICC, and if Armsman is really contributing to "max threat"? The other tank is significantly under the hit cap. Even if one is aiming for max threat, wouldn't hit-capping (vs. Hit Rating of ~200) be more effective anyway?


That's a question of opportunity cost. I haven't bothered to look at the armories specifically - and I'll note that I haven't ever used an Armsman enchant - but the opportunity cost for said tank, with his gear, to gain 2% threat from hit may be higher than 240 armor or 18 stamina. If he needs the threat, then that would make Armsman a better survival choice than taking the opportunity cost of gaining the hit elsewhere.

However, I would personally argue that Armsman is never required for threat - nor is expertise or hit - and that a correctly played protection paladin generates sufficient threat in gear chosen entirely for it's survival value that the conversation is moot. If you're having threat issues, investigate your rotation first, and your raid second.

In other words, I would suggest that Armsman is a generally suboptimal enchant in most situations. That doesn't make it suboptimal in all situations, for all players, and all raids.


Interesting. If threat is an issue, looking to the raid second (assuming a correctly played 96969 is being employed) sounds like reliance upon Tricks of the Trade and Misdirects. I respectfully disagree. I loathe relying upon others to do my job for me when it is within my power to settle my own hash.

I would say that the first place to look for Hit rating would be one's weapon; instead of Blade Ward, enchant with Accuracy. Instead of Strength/Stamina gems in red sockets (which should never be used anyway---) use Expertise/Stamina gems in red slots and Hit/Stamina gems in yellow slots. Third is gear selection. Look for gear with Hit Rating on it. I am hit-capped and dodge-expertise-capped; there is no reason other tanks can not be likewise capped if threat is their goal. Lastly, if threat is an issue, keeping Hand of Salvation constantly on cd is going to provide much more threat-cushion with near-zero opportunity-cost.

My feeling on Armsman is that it helps those with low threat, who need it most, the least; and those who generate lots of threat, and thus need it least, the most. An return inverse to need. A paladin putting out 6k tps will receive only a 120 tps return from Armsman: paltry. A paladin putting out 10k tps will receive 200 tps from Armsman: slightly less paltry. In any event the amount of threat gained is less than would be gained by hit-capping. Finally, the gain in tps is either inadequate to hold threat, or unnecessary to hold threat unless the raid's dps are falling in the narrow range of tps afforded by Armsman.

There are so many ways to gain more threat than Armsman provides without costing oneself survivability.

Again, am I wrong? And if so, how or why?
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Re: BiS or WiS?

Postby Meloree » Sun Sep 12, 2010 8:36 am

Feanorion wrote:
Meloree wrote:If you're having threat issues, investigate your rotation first, and your raid second.

In other words, I would suggest that Armsman is a generally suboptimal enchant in most situations. That doesn't make it suboptimal in all situations, for all players, and all raids.


Interesting. If threat is an issue, looking to the raid second (assuming a correctly played 96969 is being employed) sounds like reliance upon Tricks of the Trade and Misdirects. I respectfully disagree. I loathe relying upon others to do my job for me when it is within my power to settle my own hash.

Again, am I wrong? And if so, how or why?


Look to the raid: IE, are your mages not specced into any threat reduction? Are they popping all their cooldowns on the pull and pumping out 28k tps for 30 seconds? Is one rogue tricksing another rogue fulltime, but the 2nd rogue isn't bothering?

You're also wrong about survivability. Avoidance is more survivability than hit or expertise. I'm pretty certain my hardmode progression gear, early on, was at 71 hit, and 22 expertise (glyph included).

Feanorion wrote:There are so many ways to gain more threat than Armsman provides without costing oneself survivability.


No. There's generally no way to gain more threat without costing oneself survivability. It's always a question of opportunity costs. Avoidance is still survivability. It may be RNG, it may be corner-case, but it's still survivability. There's a reason we all salivated over those high-stamina triple-avoidance itemized pieces in T9.
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Re: BiS or WiS?

Postby Feanorion » Sun Sep 12, 2010 9:26 am

Meloree wrote:1) Look to the raid: IE, are your mages not specced into any threat reduction? Are they popping all their cooldowns on the pull and pumping out 28k tps for 30 seconds? Is one rogue tricksing another rogue fulltime, but the 2nd rogue isn't bothering?

2) You're also wrong about survivability. Avoidance is more survivability than hit or expertise. I'm pretty certain my hardmode progression gear, early on, was at 71 hit, and 22 expertise (glyph included).

Feanorion wrote:There are so many ways to gain more threat than Armsman provides without costing oneself survivability.


3) No. There's generally no way to gain more threat without costing oneself survivability. It's always a question of opportunity costs. Avoidance is still survivability. It may be RNG, it may be corner-case, but it's still survivability.

4) There's a reason we all salivated over those high-stamina triple-avoidance itemized pieces in T9.
[/quote]

This is a puzzling post, and I have to wonder if you understand the point of anything said.

1) Why would a rogue tricks another rogue? Why would I lazily rely upon a rogue or hunter to provide threat for me when all I have to do is hit-cap and not have to worry about it? If the mage is going all out, RD and/or HoSalv fixes the problem. But I never mentioned the raid's speccing; I was discussing an EH glove enchant vs. a threat enchant that provides negligible threat.

2) Please show me where I said that hit and/or expertise is survivability. Expertise is a small contributing factor in that it eliminates parry-hasting on the very few bosses that still parry-haste at all, but I did not say that here (until just now :D ).

3) Switching Str/Stam gems to Exp/Stam gems does not cost survivability. Switching from Fail Ward to Accuracy is not a realistic loss of survivability.

If the other tank in question is using Armsman for threat, there are better ways to increase threat. Using Armsman and hybrid Strength gems is not the best way to maximize threat: hit and expertise capping (dodge-capping at least) is a much more productive manner of threat generation. Agree or not?

4) The only great thing about t9 was not avoidance: it was not having to tank in a dress. Avoidance is nice, but I only care about EH. There is enough avoidance already on our gear to preclude having to search for more of it.
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Re: BiS or WiS?

Postby Meloree » Sun Sep 12, 2010 10:07 am

Feanorion wrote:This is a puzzling post, and I have to wonder if you understand the point of anything said.

1) Why would a rogue tricks another rogue? Why would I lazily rely upon a rogue or hunter to provide threat for me when all I have to do is hit-cap and not have to worry about it? If the mage is going all out, RD and/or HoSalv fixes the problem. But I never mentioned the raid's speccing; I was discussing an EH glove enchant vs. a threat enchant that provides negligible threat.

2) Please show me where I said that hit and/or expertise is survivability. Expertise is a small contributing factor in that it eliminates parry-hasting on the very few bosses that still parry-haste at all, but I did not say that here (until just now :D ).

3) Switching Str/Stam gems to Exp/Stam gems does not cost survivability. Switching from Fail Ward to Accuracy is not a realistic loss of survivability.

If the other tank in question is using Armsman for threat, there are better ways to increase threat. Using Armsman and hybrid Strength gems is not the best way to maximize threat: hit and expertise capping (dodge-capping at least) is a much more productive manner of threat generation. Agree or not?

4) The only great thing about t9 was not avoidance: it was not having to tank in a dress. Avoidance is nice, but I only care about EH. There is enough avoidance already on our gear to preclude having to search for more of it.


1) Rogues tricks other rogues for the damage bonus. They normally arrange to do it to each other, the threat gains cancel. If one of them is terrible at Tricks, he'll have abnormally high threat, assuming he's doing everything else right. The point is, your raid can be making mistakes that cause threat-ceiling issues.

2) You didn't say that hit and expertise are survivability. You said that you can gain threat with NO survivability trades, and that's not generally possible. Normally gaining one stat costs another. Opportunity costs.

3) You probably shouldn't be using str/stam gems. But you probably also shouldn't be using expertise/stam gems. If you must use red gems, the best choice for survivability is agility/stam hybrid gems. Therefore, choosing expertise has a survivability opportunity cost. The opportunity cost for a given level of threat, from Armsman, may be lower than what is required to produce that threat from gem or gear trades. I've personally never used it, I don't think it's generally optimal, but there exist cases where it could be the correct choice. Therefore, you can't unilaterally call it "WiS". However, to address your point very directly: in many cases str/stam hybrid gems in red slots are the best way to maximize threat, it depends on the other stats on your gear. Strength is a very powerful threat stat.

4) More is always better. In progression, I will happily trade away threat for avoidance. Hit and expertise are stats which hold very little value for me, because the threat ceiling of a properly played protection paladin is high enough without worrying about threat stats.

To be very clear (I said it earlier, too), I haven't looked at either armory. You or he may well be doing things wrong, other people have already commented. I'm simply arguing that the blanket statement that Armsman is never the correct choice may not always be true, because gearing choices are never made in a vacuum.
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Re: BiS or WiS?

Postby Fridmarr » Sun Sep 12, 2010 10:43 am

Feanorion wrote:
Grehn|Skipjack wrote:Technically, you're both wrong. BiS is the 885 Armor from Engineering.


<sigh> There's one in every crowd. I didn't think it necessary to exclude an engineering-specific enchant, especially since I linked my Armory which shows me to be a JC/miner. Thank you for the douchnozzle jackassery. I feel right at home.

I understand your frustration with his answer, but it wasn't out of line. Your response however, is out of line.
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Re: BiS or WiS?

Postby Feanorion » Sun Sep 12, 2010 10:55 am

Meloree wrote:1) Rogues tricks other rogues for the damage bonus. They normally arrange to do it to each other, the threat gains cancel. If one of them is terrible at Tricks, he'll have abnormally high threat, assuming he's doing everything else right. The point is, your raid can be making mistakes that cause threat-ceiling issues.

2) You didn't say that hit and expertise are survivability. You said that you can gain threat with NO survivability trades, and that's not generally possible. Normally gaining one stat costs another. Opportunity costs.

3) You probably shouldn't be using str/stam gems. But you probably also shouldn't be using expertise/stam gems. If you must use red gems, the best choice for survivability is agility/stam hybrid gems. Therefore, choosing expertise has a survivability opportunity cost. The opportunity cost for a given level of threat, from Armsman, may be lower than what is required to produce that threat from gem or gear trades. I've personally never used it, I don't think it's generally optimal, but there exist cases where it could be the correct choice. Therefore, you can't unilaterally call it "WiS". However, to address your point very directly: in many cases str/stam hybrid gems in red slots are the best way to maximize threat, it depends on the other stats on your gear. Strength is a very powerful threat stat.

4) More is always better. In progression, I will happily trade away threat for avoidance. Hit and expertise are stats which hold very little value for me, because the threat ceiling of a properly played protection paladin is high enough without worrying about threat stats.

To be very clear (I said it earlier, too), I haven't looked at either armory. You or he may well be doing things wrong, other people have already commented. I'm simply arguing that the blanket statement that Armsman is never the correct choice may not always be true, because gearing choices are never made in a vacuum.


Without looking at my Armory, you can not possibly comment on my gearing, let alone the other tank, whose armory I did not link. For starters, I only use Shifting Dreadstones in red slots, and those very sparingly. I don't use Guardian Dreadstones or Vivid Eye of Zuls, but if I were gemming for threat, I would use those to cap hit and dodge-expertise before considering Strength. And if a paladin is not missing, they should not need to gem or enchant otherwise for threat.

Armsman is only useful in the exceedingly rare case of a dps pulling threat at 112% or 132% (melee or range) and never going above that threshold.

Lastly, trading anything for avoidance is questionable. I will trade threat for EH depending upon the encounter, but never threat for avoidance. I refuse to throw my raid upon the mercy of RNG. Hence I hit-cap, dodge-cap, and gear solely and specifically for EH when survival matters.
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