So how exactly should I be gemming?

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Re: So how exactly should I be gemming?

Postby Barathorn » Thu Jul 08, 2010 2:08 am

Vrimmel wrote:Not only pugs, but also getting into guilds or earning trust as a fresh tank in a guild. If you are going to tank content which you are overgeared (icc with current buffs) I would rather gem for threat(dps) than avoidance. If you want to avoid being two-shot by Halion, i recommend going for stamina.


Or you could make sure you reach a level your healers are comfortable with you at and then start making the spikes less spiky or increase your threat production. This is what all good guild tanks do. PuG's are different and just want big health pools.

I would be interested to see if anyone can find one of the main tanks in one of the top guilds in the world who gems for anything else than stamina.


Gem for the content you are in. It doesn't matter what other people are gemming for if they are ahead of you in content, they aren't necessarily having the same requirements you are.

Gem for what you need and not what others gem for. You run the risk of picking up gems and talents that are for a specific fight if you simply copy someone elses armory. Understand your own needs.
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Re: So how exactly should I be gemming?

Postby Vrimmel » Thu Jul 08, 2010 2:39 am

My point is that for any tank, it should be a priority to get an EH set to start with. Once you have reached a certain level of gear, you may get other sets for avoidance or threat. In general people don't have gear which is ahead of their current content, making the gearing choice rather similar for almost everyone.

Increasing avoidance will not makes spikes less spiky, increasing EH will. Avoidance will make spikes less frequent.
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Re: So how exactly should I be gemming?

Postby Barathorn » Thu Jul 08, 2010 3:11 am

Vrimmel wrote:My point is that for any tank, it should be a priority to get an EH set to start with. Once you have reached a certain level of gear, you may get other sets for avoidance or threat. In general people don't have gear which is ahead of their current content, making the gearing choice rather similar for almost everyone.


I agree about the EH set but that wasn't what you originally said :wink: . I think that once you reach a level of EH you and your healers are comfortable with then you have serious choices to make. I don't feel we can just say Gem for Stamina anymore and consider it valid advice for everyone. It is dependant on content being worked on at this stage of the expansion for each person. Sure Stamina will be the general way people gem, but not for every case scenario currently.

Increasing avoidance will not makes spikes less spiky, increasing EH will. Avoidance will make spikes less frequent.


And by making spikes less frequent you lower the chance of back to back spikes hence making spikes less spikier? I think we are saying the same thing here just explaining it differently :) .
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Re: So how exactly should I be gemming?

Postby yappo » Thu Jul 08, 2010 4:01 am

Vrimmel wrote:
I would be interested to see if anyone can find one of the main tanks in one of the top guilds in the world who gems for anything else than stamina.


Tanks in top guilds gem for ICC 25 HM / RS 25 HM. As that content includes opponents trying to kill the tank stamina/armour seems wise. In the absence of anything trying to hurt the tank it's a waste of stats.
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Re: So how exactly should I be gemming?

Postby Tats » Thu Jul 08, 2010 7:13 am

If I armoried all the "top tanks" in the world, I would have mongoose on my weapon.

Stamina is fine, I have no problems with it; But, advising someone to skip significant amounts of avoidance for the tiniest amounts of stamina seems like bad advice.
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Re: So how exactly should I be gemming?

Postby Epimer » Thu Jul 08, 2010 7:55 am

Tats wrote:Stamina is fine, I have no problems with it; But, advising someone to skip significant amounts of avoidance for the tiniest amounts of stamina seems like bad advice.


I checked in CharDev; if I match every socket bonus I have using hybrid gems instead of my current strategy of matching +9 stamina bonuses from red sockets with a Shifting Dreadstone but otherwise gemming stamina, I lose (completely unbuffed) 1130 HP for 1.14% pure avoidance and 0.49% block. With raid buffs that will of course widen the stamina gap and lessen the relative avoidance gap. That's not tiny.
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Re: So how exactly should I be gemming?

Postby Digren » Thu Jul 08, 2010 10:48 am

My guide explicitly doesn't cover gemming for threat. But, as has been pointed out here, for many people a threat set is pretty much all they need. It's a difficult situation to document, and thus I haven't been able to come up with something better.

That said, I still recommend that your best gear be configured for effective health. That means you still use agi/sta, def/sta, or pure sta gems to match socket bonuses up to your stamina stacking ratio, which should be up around 2.0, for all of your best gear.

Your next-best gear, or a second copy of the gear if you have enough badges or extra drops, should be configured for a threat set. It doesn't have to be every pieces - it's better to have a few pieces maximized for threat (and mix them with regular tank gear) than to have a bunch of pieces that are all mediocre for threat. That means using str/crit gems, enchanting for threat or strength or attack power, etc. Make the absolute best threat pieces they can be. Then wear them 95% of the time if you wish.

Regarding stacking stamina to the detriment of everything else just to get into PUGs - yes, having gear like that will get you into more PUGs. But that's no excuse to give someone bad advice as to how to gem and enchant. It's a poor choice to give people bad advice here on Maintankadin just because they would get that same bad advice in game from a potential PUG leader. I think it's much better to give people correct advice, and empower them to make their own informed decisions as to when to deviate. For many people, this can be as simple as wearing their EH set - with a pair of stamina trinkets - to get into a group, then switching to their threat gear (or EH gear with armor/etc. trinkets) to actually do their jobs.
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Re: So how exactly should I be gemming?

Postby yappo » Thu Jul 08, 2010 3:44 pm

Digren wrote:My guide explicitly doesn't cover gemming for threat. But, as has been pointed out here, for many people a threat set is pretty much all they need. It's a difficult situation to document, and thus I haven't been able to come up with something better.


I think the main reason I've been keeping up the argument about NOT configuring for survival is based on my personal lack of proper progression content-wise. Hence I've been at least marginally overgeared for content wiping the unholy hell out our of our raids since late October.

As early as late December I started getting obscenely overgeared for ICC 10 normal mode, but as I can't gear for making people not standing in goo, Festergut 25 was simply closed for me.

Half a year later, and 25% extra cheese on everything, people are STILL standing in goo. However, they're standing in goo with a LOT better gear on top of the 25%, and raids are rapidly downing content at 70% or worse surviving strength. I believe that this would be a big NONO on 25 HM (getting 30% of your raid killed during the first minute of a fight), but the reality I'm tanking in (and I believe a lot of other tanks) is one where MD/ToT is a BAD thing because you drop on Recount, and moving away from goo should be avoided if possible, because the holy Recount says so...

In this reality, configuring for threat (dps), as long as survivability is NOT compromised simply MUST be the most optimal choise.

What difference could the puny added dps from a tank make? Well, earlier this evening we knocked Fester (25, and as always, normal mode) down with 12 secs left on enrage. I don't know if my ret-libram + Quel'delar + 261 hitrating made 12 seconds difference (Theck would know), but I DO know that swapping my armour trink for the +90 str one would have made zero difference for my survivability because three inhales wasn't enough to push me below 35% health at any moment.

While I stay clear of advicing top tanks on how to gear for end-game content, I just can't tell my co-tanks (who literally tank the content I tank) that they should go stamina, stamina, stamina when they fling me a question after the RL yells at them for failing to keep aggro.
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Re: So how exactly should I be gemming?

Postby Vrimmel » Thu Jul 08, 2010 4:34 pm

Are your cotanks undergeared compared to the rest of your guild? Even though I advocate obtaining a threat set (mostly to help encounters go down faster or humiliate the dps for fun), in most circumstances someone is doing something wrong if they can't hold aggro. Do they know the proper rotation? Are hunters and rogues to giving them MDs and ToTs? Are the paladins salving? Are players using their threat dump abilities? Still, for a casual guild with equally geared members it should be enough just to use the standard rotation in most situations.
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Re: So how exactly should I be gemming?

Postby yappo » Thu Jul 08, 2010 5:20 pm

Vrimmel wrote:Are your cotanks undergeared compared to the rest of your guild? Even though I advocate obtaining a threat set (mostly to help encounters go down faster or humiliate the dps for fun), in most circumstances someone is doing something wrong if they can't hold aggro. Do they know the proper rotation? Are hunters and rogues to giving them MDs and ToTs? Are the paladins salving? Are players using their threat dump abilities? Still, for a casual guild with equally geared members it should be enough just to use the standard rotation in most situations.


The two guilds I am a member in (two 80 tanks) can't field 25-man raids. (Heh, my 'main' guild is family and IRL friends and more often than not can't field a heroic five-man). Hence 25-man raiding is pugging.

On my 'main' I get asked for advice simply because I have a decent reputation as a solid pugging tank on my low-pop server. Less problems there mostly because dps do abyssmal damage to begin with.

My 'alt' raids on a GS cesspool high-pop server. MD? ToT? Threat-dump? Are you mad? That steals a GCD and lowers my dps. Note that 'dps' is the important thing here. 'Damage done' is not as important as you actually need to stay alive to get high points there. We're talking 10k ranged dps 100% damage done to Marrowgar brilliant minds here.

More often I see the 'other side' on Deathwhisper go to hell because the 'fail tank' doesn't instantly produce infinite threat on three mobs spawning from different spots the second they spawn.

I used to have some minor issues on Fester (nothing that double taunt shortly after pull didn't fix), but a slow dps-weapon made the last remnants of those problems go away. Same on Saurfang (you know you have a bad wipe coming when melee do 15%+ of their damage on adds, but that's another story) where tankadin rotation is partially gimped.

Co-tanks usually range in the 5500 - 5700 GS (to use an addon I detest) with moron dps shockingly often ranging 5800 - 6000, so yeah, to a certain degree they're undergeared. However, those cotanks still maintain what I classify as over-survivability.

Now I run around 5800 - 5900 GS in the threat-set I use on ICC 25 without giving the RL a heart-attack and getting me kicked, and the difference in single target dps is simply astounding. I produce around 50% more damage than my cotanks (they vary from raid to raid), and at some 5k tank-dps single-target things are not going anywhere I didn't tell them to go. My 3 - 3.5k dps cotanks aren't always that happy though.

I've convinced two tankadins to upgrade to 264 PvP bracers, use ret-libram, grabbing a slow 251 one-hander and switching def/stam gems to hit/stam gems. Problems gone, but sure, they may end up SPLAT the moment they get to tank hardmodes (apart from lootship where knockback and better loot are the only differences I've been able to discern).

At the other hand I've given up on telling tanks that 100% stamina-gemming combined with Corpse Tongue Coin looks a wee bit strange. Last time I tried I got an incoherent answer that higher GS is better and that Maintankadin says that stamina is always better, which goes to prove that this place has a better reputation than number of actual readers :D
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Re: So how exactly should I be gemming?

Postby theckhd » Fri Jul 09, 2010 6:11 am

yappo wrote:What difference could the puny added dps from a tank make? Well, earlier this evening we knocked Fester (25, and as always, normal mode) down with 12 secs left on enrage. I don't know if my ret-libram + Quel'delar + 261 hitrating made 12 seconds difference (Theck would know), but I DO know that swapping my armour trink for the +90 str one would have made zero difference for my survivability because three inhales wasn't enough to push me below 35% health at any moment.

Working backwards:
Enrage is 5 minutes (300 s). So it took you 288 seconds to kill him.
He has 40.4M hit points in 25-normal, so your raid's average DPS was 140.4k DPS. To stretch the fight out an additional 12 seconds, it would need to drop to 134.8k DPS. In other words, a drop of around 5.6k DPS.

That's a tall order for a weapon/libram/gear swap. You could probably eke out 1-2k more DPS depending on the severity of the gear swap if you have 9 stacks of the debuff, which would buy you 3 or 4 seconds.


I'm in a similar (though nowhere near as bad) situation with my guild. My death is almost never the cause of a wipe, and the rare occasion when it is can usually be chalked up to massive healer failure. More often than not, we wipe to DPS checks. So I'm a bit more of a DPS/threat-whore than most tanks because I'm often trying to help cover the DPS gap in any way possible. It's one of the reasons I really like Last Word for situations where I do want the added survivability.
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Re: So how exactly should I be gemming?

Postby yappo » Fri Jul 09, 2010 6:37 am

theckhd wrote:That's a tall order for a weapon/libram/gear swap. You could probably eke out 1-2k more DPS depending on the severity of the gear swap if you have 9 stacks of the debuff, which would buy you 3 or 4 seconds.


Ah, thanks. 1 - 2 k more dps sounds about correct, at least that's what I lead by over my cotanks (on an average taken from a too small sample-pool for being statistically useful) on Marrow, Saur and Fester. Considering that I'm one of those horrid clickers we can't chalk down that difference to my superb performance neither :D

Still, 3 seconds. That's a full 1% difference in total raid-damage resulting from a change in gear by one tank.
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Re: So how exactly should I be gemming?

Postby Vrimmel » Fri Jul 09, 2010 8:16 am

About low threat. If I'm in a raid and I forget to put on RF after a wipe and the dps pull off me, 90% of the time the RL will yell at the dps for not allowing me to get aggro without realising what the problem really was :P
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Re: So how exactly should I be gemming?

Postby Digren » Sat Jul 10, 2010 1:44 pm

Off topic

On Fester specifically, we do it with a bear starting out, then I take over when the bear gets her sixth stack. Then after the first exhale she takes back over, builds her stack up to nine, and I taunt back. When mine gets to nine I use Divine Shield to clear it, then keep tanking through the rest of the fight. Whenever she's not tanking she goes cat form, and since she only tanks during the easier parts she doesn't have to wear full survival gear.

If you ever worry about close Festergut fights, do this in addition to any other changes. It lets your off tank do a lot more DPS during the fight, and even you get to ride all the way up to nine before clearing.
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