'Required defence rating?' & 'How to improve TPS?'

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'Required defence rating?' & 'How to improve TPS?'

Postby Ushas » Sat Jul 03, 2010 10:10 am

Two questions in one topic as I don't feel they really need to be separated given they're both destined in this particular board and that the first one is pretty quick to answer. Please appreciate that while they might seem simple to you I'm really unsure and have already looked around quite a bit which is why I'm posting them here.

Armory link - Which seems quite important to both my questions. I wanted to give a wowhead link but at the moment it's glitching and missing 3 of my enchants every time it syncs with the armory for some reason.

Required defence rating?

Yes, I know that the required defence rating is 540 for raids. As I don't necessarily have the best gear at the moment and find that some of my peers in Icecrown Citadel have considerably higher average ilvls I've been keen to switch around enchants and gems to ensure that I am always either on 540 exactly or unavoidably slightly above. You'll notice that I'm bang on 540 at the moment if you check my armory out. I was just reading this thread and noticed that it says with the PvP shoulder enchant it brings the defence required down to 537. Does this refer to the enchant that I have (adds 15 resilience rating)? If so I'll be happy to drop down to 537 defence and invest enchants into other stats. It's important that this is definitely right though because if I receive a critical hit I'm going to look like a really, really stupid tank.

How to improve TPS?

As mentioned above I'm often grouping with people that have considerably higher ilvls (which equates to GearScore). Fortunately quite often I find that a mixture of them being poor players and poor enchant/gemming on their part brings their potential down to my level. Even so I've found that when comparing my TPS to other tanks in raids I am doing considerably lower TPS. Their gear isn't much better than mine and is sometimes equivalent to mine. I've read lots of threads on these forums and the official Blizzard ones talking about how paladin threat seems to be quite a bit lower than that of other tanks. Well, this isn't good enough as I need to be able to main tank sometimes as oppose to getting stuck with off tanking. For the record nobody forces me to take the off-tanking role (it's often my decision considering that I'm co-running a guild while the GM is away) but I take it because I'm worried about the implications my low TPS will have on the overall DPS towards the target.

Also mentioned above is how I try to reach the required defence (which until now I thought was 540 for me) ad then focus on stamina. I put everything else into stamina gems and enchants with the exception of my sword enchant (Accuracy), my cloak enchant (Agility - engineers only) and my gloves (Armor, engineers only). This gives me a pretty acceptable health pool of 40,699 (without Blessing of Sanctuary) and matched with the various paladin survival abilities, talents and the use effect of one of my trinkets allows me to survive a lot better than my tanking peers (usually death knights or warriors). I was off-tanking Ony10 recently with my guild. I was on whelp duty when a healer managed to die at the end of phase 2 which then managed to cause the main tank to die near the beginning of phase 3 followed by a few DPSers. I managed to build up aggro quickly enough by throwing my shield at Ony, taunting, switching seals and grabbing her quick. I managed to save one healer (the one with the lowest HPS) and two DPS. The one healer was enough to keep me alive while I switched between Divine Protection and the use effect of Corroded Skeleton key (one per minute whilst the other was on cooldown) and I never even proc'd the life saving of Argent Defender. So I think my survival is really quite.

The problem is that while I can survive under worse conditions than my usual fellow guild tank (a death knight) who has considerably better gear my TPS is way too low. Two pieces of tanking gear dropped from the 4th ICC10 boss a few days ago and I passed on the legs because I have the crafted BiS while the other tank passed on the wrists. If my required defence is 537 then I could swap my existing Saronite Swordbreakers for these without having to change gemming or enchants. See here for an item comparison. The problem is that I lose 38 hit rating from them so I'm not sure if they're a good upgrade or not. I'm already having problems with my threat so losing 38 hit rating could make things a lot worse.

My glyphs are Seal of Vengeance for threat, Divine Plea for damage mitigation and Righteous Defence to ensure taunts don't miss (as with trash/adds I've found that one missed taunt can pose a problem). I also have Sense Undead for a bonus 1% increased threat against undead. So where do I go from here? If I dropped the 3% reduced damage glyph I'd be putting more strain on healers. I'm looking for advice about how I should change my gear, gems and enchants to get some extra threat with minimum cost to my HP (which is often used as a means of determining whether I get into a PUG).

I'm pretty sure I'm playing right. If I'm tanking a boss I'll switch to Seal of Corruption before I start, pop Divine Plea, throw my shield at him and before it hits be sure to taunt. Then I'll build up 5 stacks of Blood Corruption before I pop Avenging Wrath. I follow the rotation and have my action bars laid out to ensure that I'm doing this properly. If I'm taking multiple targets then I'll use Seal of Command instead. I'll also pop Holy Wrath whenever affected targets are available and this as this saves DPS from getting themselves killed on the trash before the first boss in ICC). If there's something wrong with how I play please let me know, otherwise gear (and their gem/enchants) suggestions please.

[edit] Just to let you know I normally tank 10man raids. Nor do we have a rogue with us and our only hunter is the GM who is on holiday.
Ushas
 
Posts: 4
Joined: Tue Jun 01, 2010 10:56 am

Re: 'Required defence rating?' & 'How to improve TPS?'

Postby Pyrena » Sat Jul 03, 2010 11:11 am

First of all, you can drop your defense skill to 537 with the Wintergrasp-Shoulderenchant (yes, I know, it feels horribly wrong :roll: ). But staying exactly or slightly above the defense-minimum is by no means a necessity.
It is still a minimum and the extra avoidance helps you with staying alive.

While gems, enchantments and your spec of course contributes to your tps, oushing the right buttons at the right time is a major factor to it.
A combat-log-parse (like worldoflogs.com) would help to identify the problem.

In terms of enchantments and gear decisions I can greatly advice you to follow Digren's Gearing Guide

At first glance, you can easily swap out your Saronite Swordbreakers for Gargoyle Spit Bracers.
Keep in mind that the additional strenght compensates for most of your hitrating. You also gain a chunk of survivability.
Pyrena
 
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon May 24, 2010 12:18 pm

Re: 'Required defence rating?' & 'How to improve TPS?'

Postby Meloree » Sat Jul 03, 2010 12:00 pm

The best advice is to link a parse and let us go through the rotation. 95% of threat problems are rotation issues. However, assuming that your rotation is in fact perfect, some tips:
1) Buy the Libram of Valiance (Ret Libram, procs 200 str) - that should be an enormous TPS gain for you.
2) Try and find a slow (2.6 speed) dps weapon. It'll cost you some defense, which you'll need to make up, but it will be worth another several hundred TPS.

However, link a parse - rotation is mostly likely a portion of your problem. Also, as the poster above said, with the PVP shoulder enchant, 537 is all the defense you need.
Meloree
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 1420
Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2008 10:15 am

Re: 'Required defence rating?' & 'How to improve TPS?'

Postby Ushas » Sat Jul 03, 2010 12:02 pm

Thanks. I'll swap out the bracers then. The lower required defence should make up for the defence I lose from the new bracers :)

I looked at another thread about threat and bought myself Libram of Valiance (and saw your reply too but already bought it). As I've not had any survival problems (excluding AFK healers... XD) so far I figure losing a bit of dodge (which happens to be less useful in ICC) and gaining 360 TPS (200 strength * 1.8 from righteous fury) is a good idea.

I think I've followed that guide accordingly and only have non-stamina gems in slots that give a slot bonus of more than 6 stamina per non-blue slot except where otherwise required (gemmed for a bit of defence because of 2 items with no defence, the crafted BiS legs and crafted feet.

I do make mistakes sometimes while executing the rotation but I do know how to do it. If you tell me what addon I need to use I'll generate a parse for you next time I do a raid :)
Ushas
 
Posts: 4
Joined: Tue Jun 01, 2010 10:56 am

Re: 'Required defence rating?' & 'How to improve TPS?'

Postby Meloree » Sat Jul 03, 2010 12:08 pm

You don't need an addon.

At the start of the raid type /combatlog
Type it again at the end of raid.

After raid, go to www.worldoflogs.com, sign up for an account (free), click on Client, upload your log, copy/paste the link over here.

The issue with executing the rotation isn't generally doing it correctly and/or in-order - the issue most people have is with keeping it tight. What a parse tells us is that you're doing the rotation properly (in-order) and your efficiency at the rotation (average delay between GCDs). It's fully possible to have an average GCD wait time of well below 0.05 seconds, but more normally we see 0.2 second (or more) delays from people with threat issues. The appropriate solution is to make sure that you're identifying the next move early, and machine-gunning the hotkey for the next ability.
Meloree
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 1420
Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2008 10:15 am

Re: 'Required defence rating?' & 'How to improve TPS?'

Postby Pyrena » Sat Jul 03, 2010 12:46 pm

and gaining 360 TPS (200 strength * 1.8 from righteous fury) is a good idea.


You can't calculate the TPS-Gain this way. The 1.8 multiplicator is used to calculate the threat from holydamage.
There is also a hidden ~1.43 multiplicator (which is a relict of Blessing of Salvation times).
So the formula for holydamage -> threat is

holydamage * 1.8 * 1.43 = threat.

1 strenght doesn't equal 1 holydamage, according to Thecks TPS Analysis the difference is much more noticeable.
Pyrena
 
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon May 24, 2010 12:18 pm


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