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Tanking weapon, bad gear

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Re: Tanking weapon, bad gear

Postby yappo » Wed Jun 30, 2010 11:13 am

Candoric wrote:
If you are seriously progressing and doing hard mode LK you will have access to Putricide and therefore to Last Word. If you are not, you do not really need it in any case. Really fail to see the drama in this situation.


Apart from RNG sometimes hating you, I was under the impression we solicited advice to more paladin tanks than those currently knocking on the door to LK 25 HM.

As a matter of fact there are numerous threads supporting that notion, and they pretty much all advice a tank, as in any tank, to stack proper tanking gear chanted/gemmed for EH at the cost of pretty much everything else for progression content, no matter what content is progression for said tank.

Hence if your own statement that unless I'm currently tanking LK HM then I don't need a proper tanking weapon is correct, then that is:

1) Pretty much huge news for most of the paladin tanking community.
2) The very reason I started this thread to begin with.
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Re: Tanking weapon, bad gear

Postby Meloree » Wed Jun 30, 2010 11:25 am

yappo wrote:Where would you want avoidance, more specifically? The question is mostly to weed out gimmick fights where you turn "standard" tanking habits upside down.


A list of fights (hardmode only) where I would prefer avoidance to threat in progression? Okay.

Marrowgar, Deathwhisper, Saurfang, Festergut, Putricide, Council (melee tank), Lanathel, Sindragosa, Lich King.

Also Northrend Beasts and Twins.

Also XT, Steelbreaker, Thorim, Freya, Mimiron, Vezax, Yogg, Algalon.

Just because I value Health and Armor more highly than avoidance, in general, doesn't mean that I don't value avoidance at all. It's still a survival stat.
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Re: Tanking weapon, bad gear

Postby Candoric » Wed Jun 30, 2010 11:30 am

yappo wrote:
Candoric wrote:Hence if your own statement that unless I'm currently tanking LK HM then I don't need a proper tanking weapon is correct, then that is:


I wrote you do not need "Last Word" which is the BiS for general use in my book. I do not propose using "not a proper tanking" weapon in anything that is remotely challenging. It is just a dick-move towards your healers. TPS or DPS are no arguments for me in guild raids.
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Re: Tanking weapon, bad gear

Postby yappo » Wed Jun 30, 2010 11:46 am

Tats wrote:I cant imagine doing progression and reaching for a threat weapon if you aren't threat capped; while giving up noticeable amounts of avoidance.

I mean, If you are dicking around in farm content or heroics, I don't see a problem with that. But I know if another tank told me I was bad because im wearing a superior tanking weapon, he would quickly make it to my ignore list.


Observe that I'm not attacking anyone, but I AM questioning if we give coherent advice to tanks.

Last Word comes with zero avoidance, but it's still considered one of the best tanking weapons out there.

The [Heroic Bonebreaker Scepter] comes with 83 "avoidance points", 93 stam and a socket, and is also considered a very good tanking weapon.
Compare with [Heroic Frost Giant's Cleaver] we see 61 "avoidance points" (yes, I know you can't compare agility 1:1 with def/dodge/parry), 53 stamina and a socket.

I'd be more worried about the drop of 40 stamina than 22 "avoidance points", even with 122 extra armour mitigating 11 of those for physical fights.

Also note that we DO tell tanks to give up huge chunks of avoidance (I think somewhere in the order of 200 - 220 or so) in order to get another 170 - 200 stamina (by means of gemming and chanting). Seen in that perspective chosing [Wrathful Gladiators Truncheon] over the scepter might seem strange but in no way idiotic for progression content as you squeeze out an extra 25 stamina in the trade.

And yes, I'm rambling, but I hope I'm rambling in a constructive way.
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Re: Tanking weapon, bad gear

Postby yappo » Wed Jun 30, 2010 11:50 am

Meloree wrote:
Marrowgar, Deathwhisper, Saurfang, Festergut, Putricide, Council (melee tank), Lanathel, Sindragosa, Lich King.


Ok, that's nine out of twelve, fair enough :D
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Re: Tanking weapon, bad gear

Postby yappo » Wed Jun 30, 2010 11:51 am

Candoric wrote:
I wrote you do not need "Last Word" which is the BiS for general use in my book. I do not propose using "not a proper tanking" weapon in anything that is remotely challenging. It is just a dick-move towards your healers. TPS or DPS are no arguments for me in guild raids.


How would you value the 277 PvP weapon for progression then? That's a lot of stamina :D
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Re: Tanking weapon, bad gear

Postby Tats » Wed Jun 30, 2010 12:02 pm

yappo wrote:
Also note that we DO tell tanks to give up huge chunks of avoidance (I think somewhere in the order of 200 - 220 or so) in order to get another 170 - 200 stamina (by means of gemming and chanting).


Be careful of who you imply with "we" ;) I don't advocate that at all; note that I also only do 10 mans, and that discussion has been ran into the ground.

Just be careful, because it seems like more often than not, this forum paints the picture of "if you don't gem, gear, and enchant stam, you are tanking wrong".

yappo wrote:Seen in that perspective chosing [Wrathful Gladiators Truncheon] over the scepter might seem strange but in no way idiotic for progression content as you squeeze out an extra 25 stamina in the trade.


While thats true, stats for stats, the pvp mace is better; you are also losing over a percent of pure avoidance. If you give me the choice of 25 stam or 1% avoidance, I will probably take the avoidance.
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Re: Tanking weapon, bad gear

Postby Hokahey » Wed Jun 30, 2010 12:05 pm

Meloree wrote:
yappo wrote:Where would you want avoidance, more specifically? The question is mostly to weed out gimmick fights where you turn "standard" tanking habits upside down.


A list of fights (hardmode only) where I would prefer avoidance to threat in progression? Okay.

Marrowgar, Deathwhisper, Saurfang, Festergut, Putricide, Council (melee tank), Lanathel, Sindragosa, Lich King.

Also Northrend Beasts and Twins.

Also XT, Steelbreaker, Thorim, Freya, Mimiron, Vezax, Yogg, Algalon.

Just because I value Health and Armor more highly than avoidance, in general, doesn't mean that I don't value avoidance at all. It's still a survival stat.


However, I wonder how much of this is a matter of perspective. To be more precise, how would this change if you were in circumstances where you had the possibility that the DPS out geared you completely, possibly by a tier or more, and perhaps not even a reliable source of MD/TotT? Would you still value avoidance over threat?
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Re: Tanking weapon, bad gear

Postby Meloree » Wed Jun 30, 2010 12:13 pm

yappo wrote:Last Word comes with zero avoidance, but it's still considered one of the best tanking weapons out there.

Also note that we DO tell tanks to give up huge chunks of avoidance (I think somewhere in the order of 200 - 220 or so) in order to get another 170 - 200 stamina (by means of gemming and chanting). Seen in that perspective chosing [Wrathful Gladiators Truncheon] over the scepter might seem strange but in no way idiotic for progression content as you squeeze out an extra 25 stamina in the trade.

And yes, I'm rambling, but I hope I'm rambling in a constructive way.


Trading one survival stat (avoidance) for another (stamina) is an attempt to maximize survival. Trading two survival stats (stamina and avoidance) for threat (not a survival stat) is not.

For new tanks, I concur, threat is probably a larger priority now than survival stats. For progression tanks, it is not.
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Re: Tanking weapon, bad gear

Postby Candoric » Wed Jun 30, 2010 12:21 pm

I have absolutely no problems with the PvP weapon if this is the best you have access to. On the other hand, how many tanks have ready access to a 277 arena weapon needing 2200 personal rating?
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Re: Tanking weapon, bad gear

Postby Koatanga » Wed Jun 30, 2010 6:40 pm

A couple of observations:

With the ICC buff, stamina is increased in benefit by 25%. Dodge and parry are not similarly increased. In a world where stam and dodge/parry would otherwise be equal, stam would be 25% better in ICC.

In heroics, a new tank will almost never find himself in a group with a whole bunch of other new people. Increased DPS means less need for tank survivability due to shorter fights. For a healer with even modest gear, the only change he will make for a newbie tank is that he will do less jumping around and/or DPS on the mobs. The days when you and I dinged 80 and everyone had nothing but blues are long gone.

Would I recommend a threat weapon for a new tank? Absolutely. As long as he can cover defense minimum, his greatest fear in a heroic is the DPS pulling off him, not the mobs. Heroic content barring perhaps HoR is currently laughable.

No content except for ICC and perhaps the new drake is run by people wearing gear consistent with the gear people had when that content was relevant. We often look at things on level - that's simply not the case for a new tank. The people around him will almost always be overgeared for the content.
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Re: Tanking weapon, bad gear

Postby Barathorn » Thu Jul 01, 2010 1:43 am

Koatanga wrote:In heroics, a new tank will almost never find himself in a group with a whole bunch of other new people. Increased DPS means less need for tank survivability due to shorter fights. For a healer with even modest gear, the only change he will make for a newbie tank is that he will do less jumping around and/or DPS on the mobs. The days when you and I dinged 80 and everyone had nothing but blues are long gone.


For alts of established players I agree. For new unsupported players I don't necessarily agree unless they have a lot of gold or time. I do agree that more options are definately there with regard to quick gearing up than I had on Barathorn at 80.

Would I recommend a threat weapon for a new tank? Absolutely. As long as he can cover defense minimum, his greatest fear in a heroic is the DPS pulling off him, not the mobs. Heroic content barring perhaps HoR is currently laughable.


I completely agree. I need threat on my new 80 Tank, the mobs don't survive long enough for me to need survivability. For a Warrior I am reliably advised I do want a fast tanking weapon and I plan to stick with that. For Paladins and Frost DK's I am definately in the threat weapon camp for the majority of current content excluding heroic raids.

I think Koatanga has it pretty much spot on.
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Re: Tanking weapon, bad gear

Postby yappo » Thu Jul 01, 2010 2:24 am

This pretty much translates to a major revamp of [3.3 Progression Gear Guide] tanking levels 1, 2 and 3, which obviously includes my failsafe guide.

I'm in no way talking about ret-gear in prot spec, but certain slots would need a very close study (weapon being one of them).

We'd also need to cater for 'door openers'. By that I mean gear that allows you inside the raid/heroic before you get kicked out due to threat-problems. (People still go bananas when I show up with 35k hp UB for trash-duty on ICC 10 normal mode, because they believe 50+ hp buffed presents a survivability problem there...)
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Re: Tanking weapon, bad gear

Postby Pala » Sat Jul 03, 2010 8:32 am

I'm off to enchant my Bloodvenom Blade with Accuracy. I like Berserking's buff but I lose about 1900 armor from its debuff. My warrior co-tank on 25s once commented on why I was using a Frost Giant's Cleaver and I felt a little bad since it wasn't a 'tank' weapon and hurt survivability. I really do like the extra tps from the dps weapons though and this thread has helped give me reasons to use them.
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Re: Tanking weapon, bad gear

Postby yappo » Sun Jul 04, 2010 5:59 pm

Pala wrote:I'm off to enchant my Bloodvenom Blade with Accuracy. I like Berserking's buff but I lose about 1900 armor from its debuff. My warrior co-tank on 25s once commented on why I was using a Frost Giant's Cleaver and I felt a little bad since it wasn't a 'tank' weapon and hurt survivability. I really do like the extra tps from the dps weapons though and this thread has helped give me reasons to use them.


Just have a chat with your co-tank. There are a few fights where a huge discrepancy in threat is suboptimal. Saurfang comes to mind :D
Hence you might want a tank-weapon handy in order to be able to LOWER your threat without trashing your rotation.
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