Remove Advertisements

Tanking weapon, bad gear

Get help with your character's gear

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, Sabindeus, majiben, lythac, Digren

Tanking weapon, bad gear

Postby yappo » Wed Jun 30, 2010 1:18 am

I just had a flash of insight, which of course means I could just as well have had a major brainfart.

Here's my flamebait: If you're equipping a tanking weapon you're carrying bad gear.

So, let's analyze that rather strange statement.


Why do you want a tanking weapon?

1) You need the def-rating on it to stay uncrittable.
2) Eh, could you please help me find a VALID number two?


Why is a slow dps one-hander a better tanking weapon than a tanking weapon?

1) It produces superior threat.
2) It produces superior dps.
3) It gives extra armour (that agility is another triple digit armour).
4) It reduces the risk of parry-haste due to being slower in the first place.
yappo
 
Posts: 1107
Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2008 4:15 pm

Re: Tanking weapon, bad gear

Postby Anorian » Wed Jun 30, 2010 1:42 am

That indeed is quite good point you got there, not that I've used a proper tanking weapon alot lately. The defensive stats on a tank weapon are so insignificant i'ts very easy to make the swap to a 2.6 dps weapon which increases threat and dps by quite a lot.
Image
User avatar
Anorian
 
Posts: 361
Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2008 2:38 am

Re: Tanking weapon, bad gear

Postby econ21 » Wed Jun 30, 2010 2:34 am

You bring up a good point - I've been desperate to find a decent slow one-hander and ended up emptying my bank for the battered hilt out of a belief I would not be allowed to roll for one. But it is situational. When I geared up, the mantra here was "threat is not a problem" for paladins and should not be geared for. Nowadays, with the ICC buff, there's an increasing tendency to say "survival is not a problem". We may have reached a point in the game where for an old tank (not doing heroic modes?), their gear is fine for the content and they can just go nuts.

For a new tank, if the dps is over-geared and unrestrained, I can see the argument for a threat weapon. But still, the tanking weapon has its advantages. It is not trivial to get uncrittable as a new tank. And new tanks are squishy in a way veterans have forgotten - they may have half as much hitpoints. PUGs do wipe in heroics and if the tank dies, this is the likely outcome. By contrast, dps grabbing aggro is not usually catastrophic - they usually survive or at least the party can usually survive; and it might be, cough, educational. Threat is subject to a "cap" of sort - if you are not throttling your dps, then higher threat is of no benefit (aside from the extra dps that you do). By contrast, even small increments in survival stats can be the difference between life and death.

If we compare specific weapons, the idea that tanking weapons are bad is not so clear. Take, for example, the two I have access to - Marrowgar's 251 sceptre and the Battered Hilt weapon:
http://www.wowhead.com/compare?items=50046;50760

The tanking weapon does not just have defence and dodge - it has more 38 stamina and 42 strength. According to Theck, it has 9023 tps compared to 9520 tps for the hilt weapon. My experience is that generally in ICC guild runs, I have no threat problems so I use the tanking weapon on raid bosses for survival as if I die, we wipe. However, I use the hilt in heroics. For PUG raids - where I have received a complaint about my threat - perhaps I should use the hilt. I will have to consider a "PUG raid spec" which incorporates the hilt.

I do think we should have as much right to roll on a slow dps one-hander as at least hunters (combat rogues I guess should have priority).

I guess things will change with cataclysm, when threat goes away and slow one-handers are given strength stats. Blizzard has recently said there will be some "tanking" weapons with stamina, but not that many in case tanks don't want them. For now, I have a hunch the best overall weapon for a tank is an arena weapon - high ilevel, high stamina and slow. My arena skills are insufficient for me to obtain one at the moment, but I will certainly give thought to those rated battlegrounds in cataclysm.
econ21
 
Posts: 1373
Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2008 8:53 am

Re: Tanking weapon, bad gear

Postby yappo » Wed Jun 30, 2010 2:42 am

I had this very, very, very bad feeling that the BiS tanking weapon for a paladin was a result of 2200+ arena-points or whatever is needed for the best PvP weapons, and you just supported that suspicion.
yappo
 
Posts: 1107
Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2008 4:15 pm

Re: Tanking weapon, bad gear

Postby Candoric » Wed Jun 30, 2010 2:51 am

I see no reason to equip a dps weapon in guild raids. The threat is a non-issue, the dps you, as a tank, could produce is insignificant compared to the 12k+ dps "real" dpsers do. And according to the parry-haste experiment thread here on this forum it is all but dead in ICC.

I agree that "tanking weapons" with avoidance or hit/expertise are nothing I really want. But that is why I either wear Crusaders Glory from ToC (which has delicious armor) or Last Word, which has a delicious healing-buff proc that even spreads with beacon. And seeing how I get manhandled at LK 25H sometimes I would not switch Bloodvenom Blade in and forfeit these benefits.
Candoric
 
Posts: 15
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2010 12:27 pm

Re: Tanking weapon, bad gear

Postby yappo » Wed Jun 30, 2010 3:12 am

Candoric wrote:I agree that "tanking weapons" with avoidance or hit/expertise are nothing I really want. But that is why I either wear Crusaders Glory from ToC (which has delicious armor) or Last Word, which has a delicious healing-buff proc that even spreads with beacon. And seeing how I get manhandled at LK 25H sometimes I would not switch Bloodvenom Blade in and forfeit these benefits.


Something like [Wrathful Gladiator's Truncheon], or the identical sword/axe still comes with more raw stamina, and you even get to keep the socket bonus for giggles when you slot in that +30 stamina.

Basically that PvP weapon is Last Word, but better.
yappo
 
Posts: 1107
Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2008 4:15 pm

Re: Tanking weapon, bad gear

Postby theckhd » Wed Jun 30, 2010 5:48 am

I would argue that Last Word is slightly preferable to the PvP weapon. The proc is not something to be discounted, it can contribute a significant amount of healing during a trickle-down burst.

It's one of the reasons I use Last Word as my go-to tanking weapon nowadays. At 1.8 speed and 100+ STR, it's better threat than a slow tanking weapon. I don't need the defense or avoidance that I get from a regular tanking weapon barring gimmick gear sets (i.e. frost resist for LDW/Sindragosa, and even there I have breathing room). It's what I'd consider the best balance between going all-out DPS with a 2.6-speed (Heroic Gutbuster or Havoc's Call, for example) and a pure tanking weapon (Facelifter, Bonebreaker).

Note that if my EH were really threatened, I'd still use Crusader's Glory. Massive DPS and TPS hit by doing so though. I don't think the armor from CG is enough to offset the loss of the healing buff and considerably increased threat generation in most cases though.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
MATLAB 5.x, Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 7716
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA

Re: Tanking weapon, bad gear

Postby yappo » Wed Jun 30, 2010 7:12 am

theckhd wrote:I would argue that Last Word is slightly preferable to the PvP weapon. The proc is not something to be discounted, it can contribute a significant amount of healing during a trickle-down burst.


So unless you have access to heroic Put 25-man, the best tanking weapon in the game would be a PvP weapon (from an EH point of view), and even WITH access to the formal BiS tank-weapon it would still only be slightly better?

I don't even count heroic Havoc's Call (the number of people doing LK 25 HC on farm are easily counted), but I saw from your graphs that either version was a tps-monster.

Those graphs put the PvP weapon at around 500 or so higher TPS (compared with Last Word), 24 extra stamina, minus a substantial healing proc), but more importantly, similar tps as all the best one-handers barring Havoc's Call.

From what I could see at a quick glance you pay a 30 - 40 stamina penalty for a 'normal' ICC quality dps-weapon compared with its tanking counterpart, but the dps-weapon would gain you 140 - 150 armour (which mitigates almost 50% of the stamina lost in ICC) and 30 - 50% of the avoidance available from the tanking weapon (agility). Again with a 500:ish gain in tps.

That's another 12k damage per minute on primary targets, and I guess a lot more on AoE situations, which also coinsides with where proper handling of MD and ToT is a bit iffier. With a 264/277 dps/PvP weapon compared to a non-Last Word tanking weapon the difference seems to be even larger.
yappo
 
Posts: 1107
Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2008 4:15 pm

Re: Tanking weapon, bad gear

Postby Meloree » Wed Jun 30, 2010 7:34 am

It all depends on what you want to give up and when.

There are times when avoidance is highly desirable, and giving up 50-60 rating by moving to a DPS weapon is an iffy choice. None of the dps weapons compare in EH to 245 Crusader's Glory/Ardent Guard (I think, I suck at horde names). If you count threat as generally low priority in progression, then tanking weapons are generally superior in progression, because they're generally superior for survival.

So, to answer the question in the original post - no, wearing a tanking weapon does not make one bad.
Meloree
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 1420
Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2008 10:15 am

Re: Tanking weapon, bad gear

Postby Barathorn » Wed Jun 30, 2010 7:44 am

Meloree wrote:So, to answer the question in the original post - no, wearing a tanking weapon does not make one bad.


Mel, if you were a new level 80 Tank gearing up, struggling for threat, would you consider a DPS weapon a sensible threat boost if you didn't need the survivability?

This is the question that was raised in the Case Study thread when Yappo and I had a facepalm moment.
Sabindeus wrote:I feel like I should get a t-shirt made for me that says "Not Socially Awkward, Just Fat".

Brekkie wrote:The world will always need people to dig ditches.
User avatar
Barathorn
Moderator
 
Posts: 7100
Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2007 1:08 am
Location: Hitting Panda's over the head with a cricket bat shouting Get Orf My Lawn!

Re: Tanking weapon, bad gear

Postby Meloree » Wed Jun 30, 2010 8:12 am

Barathorn wrote:
Meloree wrote:So, to answer the question in the original post - no, wearing a tanking weapon does not make one bad.


Mel, if you were a new level 80 Tank gearing up, struggling for threat, would you consider a DPS weapon a sensible threat boost if you didn't need the survivability?

This is the question that was raised in the Case Study thread when Yappo and I had a facepalm moment.


Assuming I could cover the defense? Yes, absolutely. It might not even be important to cover the defense for heroics.

Given minimal context in the OP, I was speaking from the perspective of a progression tank. While gearing up, in heroics and ToC and other content that's relatively nonthreatening, especially given healers that are probably more geared than you are, it's safe to say that threat is a significantly more prevalent concern - especially if you can't rely on pug rogues and pug hunters to manage threat for you.

That said, if you're levelling a warrior, I believe fast is good, slow is bad. More heroic strikes trumps heavier devastates, unless you're outgearing the content badly enough to be rage-starved. Just don't use a dagger (it normalizes to a lower speed, and that will hurt your threat) - but any fast sword/axe/mace works.

This is one reason I try to avoid giving out too much "new tank" advice these days. It's been pointed out to me that I'm somewhat out of touch with anything that doesn't involve 25-man hardmodes, and I can't help but agree. I also tend to read anything context-less as "applying to progression", because it's my default perspective.
Meloree
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 1420
Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2008 10:15 am

Re: Tanking weapon, bad gear

Postby Barathorn » Wed Jun 30, 2010 8:27 am

Meloree wrote:This is one reason I try to avoid giving out too much "new tank" advice these days. It's been pointed out to me that I'm somewhat out of touch with anything that doesn't involve 25-man hardmodes, and I can't help but agree. I also tend to read anything context-less as "applying to progression", because it's my default perspective.


I am hoping that the case study allows me to rectify pretty much the same situation but from further down the scale - 10 man normal modes. My 10 man knowledge is fine, I know I can rely on you for 25 man heroic and Lieris for 10 man heroic but I personally felt that the gearing process for a new 80 was a weak spot for us giving advice.

Thanks!

Barathorn
Sabindeus wrote:I feel like I should get a t-shirt made for me that says "Not Socially Awkward, Just Fat".

Brekkie wrote:The world will always need people to dig ditches.
User avatar
Barathorn
Moderator
 
Posts: 7100
Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2007 1:08 am
Location: Hitting Panda's over the head with a cricket bat shouting Get Orf My Lawn!

Re: Tanking weapon, bad gear

Postby yappo » Wed Jun 30, 2010 9:18 am

Meloree wrote:It all depends on what you want to give up and when.

There are times when avoidance is highly desirable, and giving up 50-60 rating by moving to a DPS weapon is an iffy choice. None of the dps weapons compare in EH to 245 Crusader's Glory/Ardent Guard (I think, I suck at horde names). If you count threat as generally low priority in progression, then tanking weapons are generally superior in progression, because they're generally superior for survival.

So, to answer the question in the original post - no, wearing a tanking weapon does not make one bad.



Where would you want avoidance, more specifically? The question is mostly to weed out gimmick fights where you turn "standard" tanking habits upside down.

As a tank is likely to have priority on tanking weapons anyway (they're pretty much useless for anyone else), would an avoidance-heavy tanking weapon be relegated to some "peculiar" fight but overall in reality be a rather poor pick for bread and butter tanking?

The OP, while posited provocatively, is meant to have us thinking outside the box.

That could perfectly well result in all of us agreeing that the box is a pretty good place after all (after all I did acknowledge that I may have done a brainfart).

It could also result in us seeing that all tanks are equal, but some tanks are more equal than others (stick to a proper tanking weapon if you're pushing 10+/12 HM 25, but stay away from it for everything else, even if said everything else is progression for your guild).
yappo
 
Posts: 1107
Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2008 4:15 pm

Re: Tanking weapon, bad gear

Postby Candoric » Wed Jun 30, 2010 10:21 am

It simply hails from the situation in the late life of an addon. Starting out in WOTLK with a new character I was scrounging for every bit of EH I could possibly get and god damn I did need it. Nowadays with overinflated characters compared to the dungeons and earlier raids new tanks of course can switch their priorities. So, yes, at the end of an expansion new tanks need to offset threat more than effective health if they do non-state-of-the-art content. That does not shatter any world-view for me, really.

If you are seriously progressing and doing hard mode LK you will have access to Putricide and therefore to Last Word. If you are not, you do not really need it in any case. Really fail to see the drama in this situation.
Candoric
 
Posts: 15
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2010 12:27 pm

Re: Tanking weapon, bad gear

Postby Tats » Wed Jun 30, 2010 11:11 am

I cant imagine doing progression and reaching for a threat weapon if you aren't threat capped; while giving up noticeable amounts of avoidance.

I mean, If you are dicking around in farm content or heroics, I don't see a problem with that. But I know if another tank told me I was bad because im wearing a superior tanking weapon, he would quickly make it to my ignore list.
User avatar
Tats
 
Posts: 164
Joined: Sat Jul 21, 2007 9:59 am

Next

Return to Gear Discussions and Advice

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


Remove Advertisements

Who is online

In total there is 1 user online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest