Case Study #1 - Gearing upto ICC10 entry as a new 80 Tank

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Re: Case Study #1 - Gearing upto ICC10 entry as a new 80 Tank

Postby djlar » Fri Aug 06, 2010 6:39 am

Well you did it... congrats...

I got my shaman from fresh 80 to ICC raiding in 12 hours.. I guess it's easier for a healer..

I kinda cheated I stacked him with a couple of i264 BoEs and a couple of i245's, got lucky drops early (like Solace on my very first ToC 25)

Yeah but going like that from zero to hero is nice..

I'm going to try to follow your tanking experience, I have a lonely tank in an alliance server, which I don't play much anymore, dinged 80 and left him there, got a couple of Naxx runs, that's it, he's sitting there at 3200 GS with about 27K HP, tried to get back to him but got tired of heroics and I can't even get a ToC 10 going..
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Re: Case Study #1 - Gearing upto ICC10 entry as a new 80 Tank

Postby Hammerhelm » Tue Aug 10, 2010 4:35 am

First of all: Congratulations, you did it, no matter what the group you were invited to turned out to be like. From what you're saying, it was a "regular" ICC10 PuG, not one of those "let's invite everyone and see if we can kill anything" ones. So yes, it's not your fault.

Thank you so much for this thread. I've been coming to Main Tankadin from time to time, but this finally made me register. Great read.

I myself am doing something similar right now. I must admit though that I cheated at least a little bit. I was kind of tired of all those threads about how hard it is to get geared and get into raids, and I decided to try it myself and created another Paladin on my realm's alliance side. I normally play horde. So I basically didn't know anyone (execpt the people I met as enemies in open pvp, but of course, that didn't really help). I leveled as a tank (first ret, then protection from level 60 on). After 5 days of /played, I hit level 80. I sent myself some stuff, using the neutral AH to start with:

- Spiked Deathdealers
- Indestructible Plate Girdle
- Titansteel Shield Wall

And... erm... after I hit 4500 GS, I made myself some PILLARS OF MIGHT. That was probably unnecessary, but I just felt I HAD to create and use them at least once.

I startet doing heroics with a gearscore of about 3000. After about 26 hours /played, I had all the EoT tanking gear available. I had to run normal ToC5 about 15 times for the Black Heart, was lucky with the shield from HoR (2nd run) and the mace from PoS (1st run).

Funny thing is, I encountered only two harsh comments about my gear, both occured on the first evening - and one of them apologised later.

First case was on my first ever heroic. The healer, a 5800 GS disc priest, complained. The said he could hardly keep me alive, because I only got 30.000 hp and constantly got crit. I must say it's a real mystery to me how I can get crit "all the time" in a 5man while having 537 def. But who knows. Of course, there wasn't anything on the logs, yet, he kept repeating himself pull after pull.

Second case was a demo lock, almost dropping the group because he "would pull aggro an keep dying, anyway". I convinced him to give it a try. No aggro problems, he apologised to me, saying: "Looks like I finally got a tank who can actually tank."

That's it. No more comments. Not when I got H PoS through as a random dungeon for the first time, having a GS of 3700, not when I entered H HoR with a GS of 4100.

So from my experience, I can't say I got kicked out of 5mans because of my gear or that I kept getting rude comments from "jerks". This part was actually quite fun.

Right now, I'm sitting at 4980 GS. Could boost past 5k by using Ick's Rotting Thumb instead of the Black Heart, but I won't do that. I don't plan to look like a moron. There's no more items I could buy from EoT apart from Crusader Orbs to get the ToC25 craftable chestplate made. Other possible upgrades are:

Harbinger's Bone Band - ICC25 BoE
Boots of Kingly Upheaval - ICC Crafted
Whatever the name from HoR's first bosses' tanking cloak was - I'm still wearing the EoV one, minor upgrade.

So basically, I consider myself ready for ICC10. The last few days, I encountered a minor setback, though. Alliance side on my realm is pretty empty. I've been looking for ToC10/ToC25 and ICC10 groups for days now. Not seen a single ToC one forming. Got rejected by 4 ICC ones, although I had put my "low" GS on the lfr comment. So, all four leader knew that this was a fresh level 80, about 5000 GS, with 11/12 ICC tanking experience (from other toons) looking for any ICC10 raid, even preferably "crappy alt runs". Everytime I got whispered, I made sure people had read the comment.

The first leader, a frost DK, told me to get to Dalaran for a gear check. I ensured he knew what to expect.

He said: "5k GS is fine. You got experience, don't you?"
Me: "Yes. This is a fresh toon, but I tanked all but the LK before on my horde Paladin."
Then he asked: "How much life do you have?"
I answered: "36.000 without any buffs."
- Silence -
"That's not enough. Sry."

Second leader, another frost DK. Same story. Agreed that 5000 GS is plenty. Knew I'm an alt, knew that I tanked ICC10 before. Looking at my gear, he said: "That's not enough for ICC." (which is kind of strange, because if 5000 GS is enough for it, how can my gear, enchanted using the best enchants, gemmed with only epic quality gems that actually make sense not be enough? Anyway, I decided not to bother him about it.)

Third: Apparently didn't read the comment.
"Wanna tank ICC10?"
"You read the comment?"
"Lol."

Fourth one did read it, but it seems like he didn't understand. After inspecting me:
"You look like you've never been to ICC."
"Not on this toon, that's right. But I play a Paladin tank on Horde side, and I've tanked all bosses up to Sindragosa several times."
"Sorry, I thought you were talking about that toon. That's not enough".

I must say, I start to get tired of the phrase "That's not enough". Everytime I have to read it, I feel tempted to reply: "It's not enough FOR YOU."

Anyway, it's not yet time to give up, I'm sure I'll make it. But one thing struggles me. As interesting these kinds of gearing experiments are, they probably only work if you know what you're doing. I guess the whole 5man grind worked so well not although my gear was bad at first, but because I had tanked every 5man dungeon countless times before, I knew what to pull and when to pull it. I always kept in mind that whatever I pulled had to be killed by the dps before the healer or me get into trouble. I can hardly imagine how hard things like that must be if you not only have bad gear, but also no real tanking experience...
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Re: Case Study #1 - Gearing upto ICC10 entry as a new 80 Tank

Postby Archeth » Tue Aug 10, 2010 5:47 am

These chats are just sad. What exactly do they expect from "5k GS"? And why the hell do they think they need a tank with more than 36k unbuffed health in ICC-10?

Hammerhelm wrote:As interesting these kinds of gearing experiments are, they probably only work if you know what you're doing. I guess the whole 5man grind worked so well not although my gear was bad at first, but because I had tanked every 5man dungeon countless times before, I knew what to pull and when to pull it. I always kept in mind that whatever I pulled had to be killed by the dps before the healer or me get into trouble. I can hardly imagine how hard things like that must be if you not only have bad gear, but also no real tanking experience...

I totally agree with this. I used RaF gift levels to make another paladins and rushed her to 80 to be used as a farming alt and so far I have never had people complain about me or my gear, which surprised me considering I had met enough people in the past who acted like it should be forbidden to queue for a heroic with less than 30k unbuffed health (I did H-FoS with about 23k and H-PoS with around 27k). Sure, in the beginning I lost aggro often, but if you already know the drill, you can adjust - master taunting, use some threat libram, -glyphs and -weapon, and I was constantly reminded of this thread when rogues kept using tricks on me :D. But overall it has been very smooth and free of complaints, which I mainly attribute to myself knowing how to play a paladin tank in the WotLK heroics very well.

On the other hand the real newbie will have to deal with low level gear, probably unfamiliar class mechanics (I know I struggled with my DK tank alt before, simply because I was still getting used to its toolkit) and new instances. And as soon as things go wrong and it remotely looks like a tank fuckup, the newbie will have to deal with abuse out the wazoo, like Barathorn had to at some points in his study.
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Re: Case Study #1 - Gearing upto ICC10 entry as a new 80 Tank

Postby djlar » Tue Aug 10, 2010 6:45 am

I continue to gear up my lonely alliance pally, got to 4400 GS, about 33K HP unbuffed, Blizzard says I can tank ICC10, even Ruby Sanctum 10!, hehe good luck getting an invite.. then again I tanked H HOR with no problems (it barely got "unlocked" because of low GS). Funny reaction of the group when I got my "Heroic Halls of Reflection" achievement..

Got to OT the weekly, it was XT-002, but I joined a 25 man Ulduar, they wanted something from Razor, I successfully OT Razor and XT-002, on a 25 man, with 19 people on raid..

I'm think I'm fully capable of an ICC 10, even an ICC 25!, but the low GS and "low HP" obstacle keeps getting in the way. I mean I can be over 50K HP raid buffed at ICC wich is just fine.. people that want to see 70K HP for regular runs.. geesh.. I've seen tanks with that much HP dying to stupid stuff like not moving from Marrowgar fire, not taunting correctly at LDW, Saurfang, Fester, etc
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Re: Case Study #1 - Gearing upto ICC10 entry as a new 80 Tank

Postby Hammerhelm » Tue Aug 10, 2010 7:05 am

Archeth wrote:On the other hand the real newbie will have to deal with low level gear, probably unfamiliar class mechanics (I know I struggled with my DK tank alt before, simply because I was still getting used to its toolkit) and new instances. And as soon as things go wrong and it remotely looks like a tank fuckup, the newbie will have to deal with abuse out the wazoo, like Barathorn had to at some points in his study.


And confidence issues. When something goes wrong in 5mans, I'm positive I can figure out the reason. For example, right from the beginning, I kept meeting dps who felt it was a great idea to pull mob groups for me. I would always whisper them: "Thanks for that kind service, but please let me do the pulls, I know my way around, I know my gear, I inspected the dps and healer, and I try to do this as quickly as possible without wiping the group". I basically made sure everybody understood that I'm trying my best not to waste their time. If they wouldn't listen and keep pullig stuff because "itz so lol", that's not my problem. I did my part, I do my job. When I fuck it up, I know it. I don't need other people to tell me how much I suck. In short: I feel comfortable enough about my tanking that I don't feel I need to listen to people whose only purpose is to make sure LFD tank shortage will persist by telling fresh tanks how bad they are.

A real fresh tank might not have that confidence. He might aswell say: "Screw it! I'm not gonna tank for those jerks!" And I guess that's why some gearing guides for tanks propose to queue as dps first until you have 5k+ GS tanking gear...

And about the sad chats. I tell people I have tanked in ICC before. This "cheat" (in terms of a "clean" fresh-80-experiment-setup) might even be a major one. I'm pretty sure that when I get invited to my first ICC PuG, it will be because someone actually believes me and decides to "give me a chance". It won't be because my gear or achievements make me look very good...
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Re: Case Study #1 - Gearing upto ICC10 entry as a new 80 Tank

Postby Chasey » Tue Aug 10, 2010 10:02 am

This really has been an amazing thread! I think with what Bara did and showed to us all is that being a tank takes more than just the toon you get comfortable on and kinda (at least in game) become to your guild and in game friends.
I think he also reminded some of us that its harder to tank than we realize. What I mean by saying that is our main tank is all on memory and set up to how we want it and our guild wants us to have it.
When we get caught up in a situation where we are on our own and gearing up a toon w/o help and friends it makes realize the skill you have and the person you are (I know thats deep but this tread was too) as a player in this game.
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Re: Case Study #1 - Gearing upto ICC10 entry as a new 80 Tank

Postby Barathorn » Thu Aug 12, 2010 2:06 am

Just as a quick update, I successfully tanked the first 6 bosses in ICC10 last night with my warrior on an alts farm run with fellow guildmembers.

A breakdown of the entire case study will be posted once I get some free time to go through all the data collected.

Thanks again to all those who contributed to this thread, your posts kept me motivated to the end of the study.

For those interested, you can see my tank prior to upgrades from last nights ICC10 run if you search for the Grey Council on Aerie Peak EU and look for Veit.

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Re: Case Study #1 - Gearing upto ICC10 entry as a new 80 Tank

Postby Epimer » Thu Aug 12, 2010 3:14 am

Bara,

I look forward to reading the summary. I've been following the thread and your progress and it's been a good read - thank you for doing this. I'm even more sympathetic since my warrior alt dinged 80; the amount of abuse I've gotten in level 80 normal dungeons - normal, not heroic - as a fresh tank is absolutely staggering. I'm holding agggro (and always in the top 2 on damage done), I'm keeping up Thunderclap and Demo Shout, making prodigious use of interrupts, stuns and Spell Reflect to minimise incoming damage, and mostly finishing runs cleanly, but the "green gear = bad/fail tank" brigade aren't satisfied. I could do a much worse job on my main (and frankly do, since there's no need or incentive to stun and interrupt when you vastly overgear content) and receive no stick for it, purely because his gear is purple.

Many congratulations for struggling through and (more or less) achieving your goal.
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Re: Case Study #1 - Gearing upto ICC10 entry as a new 80 Tank

Postby Doxa » Fri Aug 13, 2010 8:27 am

I love this thread and am so disappointed it missed it while it was going on.

I just finished hitting 80 on my 3rd tank - a DK. It was pretty awful.

Usually it started with mocking regarding my GS and ended with "Wow, good job for a new tank / bad GS."

The biggest challenge though was was the total assholes with uber great 5500 GS mocking me. It was all I could do from linking them my armory pages for my warrior and pally tanks. I definitely feel sorry for truly new tanks. We have 2 new tanks in the guild who have always played DPS and neither of them are willing to do their random heroics without 2-3 guildies with them.

At this point, on my DK, I've stalled out. I've got a 4900 GS and all the pre-ICC gear I can acquire. Unfortunately, most people on my server will not take a 4900 GS tank to ICC10 or 25. So, last week I finally just made my own group (4700 GS at the time). We went 9/12 in an all-pug. I suspect I'll just have to run my own runs for now until I get better gear.
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Meanwhile, pulling DPS from fire with life-grip on Enlight and throwing lightning on Pneuma.
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Re: Case Study #1 - Gearing upto ICC10 entry as a new 80 Tank

Postby Galektra » Fri Aug 13, 2010 1:03 pm

Grats Bara, mission accomplished!

I just hit 80 with my 2nd Warrior last Friday, which gave me 6 days to get up to speed to tank my guild alt run last night. Having geared 2 tanks before, I had a very clear plan of how to go about it:

1. The second I hit 80 I farmed honor for the Wrathful cloak and the huge stamina boost it gives. I also had Saronite Swordbreakers and Titansteel Shield Wall crafted, gemmed and enchanted.

2. With those 3 epics in place, I farmed the crap out of reg ToC for The Black Heart. It took quite a few runs (maybe 12-15) to drop, but along the way I also managed to get the 4 other tanking pieces.

3. I farmed regular FoS, and got Lucky Old Sun on my first run. Since I felt ok about where I was, I moved right onto step 4. There are some nice pieces in ICC regs though if you need more upgrades.

4. I farmed random heroics until my eyes bled, with an eye to getting specific drops later. I queued for heroic ToC (neck, ring), FoS (boots), and PoS (chest, shoulders, sword) once each day before doing randoms.

5. In the end I managed to get the chest, sword and boots, and filled in the gaps with the 245 offset helm and shoulders, T9 pants and the Clutch of Fortification.

All this gave me about 36k HP unbuffed, 26k armor, and a lolgearscore around 4650. I could have bumped that up to 4.8k or so if I equipped Ick’s Rotting Thumb, so I think I could have squeezed into a late-week PuG with some effort. With a guild behind me though (even alts) it was a breeze. We 1-shot the first 6 bosses, but I had to concede when we got to Professor and he consistently dropped me at 3 or 4 stacks (with CD’s up).
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Re: Case Study #1 - Gearing upto ICC10 entry as a new 80 Tank

Postby Doxa » Fri Aug 13, 2010 1:47 pm

Galektra, that sounds like nearly exactly what I did on my DK. Sounds like we ended up at about the same place too before entering ICC (4700-ish GS).

I did have the 226 crafted boots and belt made however as I still consider them better than the 232 alternatives.
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Meanwhile, pulling DPS from fire with life-grip on Enlight and throwing lightning on Pneuma.
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Re: Case Study #1 - Gearing upto ICC10 entry as a new 80 Tank

Postby Chasey » Sun Aug 15, 2010 2:05 pm

Well 1st gratz to Bara on getting to 6/12 on this toon already.

2nd I've seen a huge trend in this thread: We all get a beating (not from the mobs either) when you want to be a tank. It takes thick skin!

3rd Bara may have logged this adventure and kept us all at the edge of our seats but seems like many of us have done this in this expansion.

This might be my favorite thread of all time!
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Re: Case Study #1 - Gearing upto ICC10 entry as a new 80 Tank

Postby djlar » Tue Aug 17, 2010 5:49 am

4450 GS Prot pally, went into an ICC 10 run, did 7/12 quick run. no gear dropped though.. but I was able to complete the emblems for the tanking cloak and during the run I got enough rep for "friendly" Ashen Verdict status so I upgraded my ring also. I was tanking like a pro though, it was about 52K HP raid/ICC buffed, more than enough to tank ICC 10.. keep in mind 4450 GS is absolutely no gear over i232, I had 3 piece T9.0 some stuff from 5 man heroics, titansteel shield wall, several pieces from Naxx 25, etc.

So I came out victorious with plagueworks achieve along "boned", "I'm on a boat", "made a mess" as a bonus

Went out and did a quick ToC 10 to try to replace some i213 items.. RNG wasn't in my side, no tanking gear dropped all night.. 7 bosses on ICC plues 5 on ToC 10 = zero drops. Got some ret pants on that ICC run though... 14 pieces to go..
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Re: Case Study #1 - Gearing upto ICC10 entry as a new 80 Tank

Postby Badenhawk » Tue Aug 17, 2010 10:06 pm

Man, I'm so bummed that I missed this post as it was unfolding Bara....I just stumbled onto it today and it has been a truly compelling read.

It sadden's me that there's still so much angst in the game atm coming from fucktards who hide in heroics for the sole purpose of baiting people who don't have a GS of 5000+ because they haven't had 8 months to farm badges, but for all that these wankers still suck at life. The fact that you kept going in light of this and along the way had some experiences that rebuked all the bad stuff, such as the good groups and encouragement from those players who do actually remember that they were in the same boat once upon a time (rather than the learn fast or GTFO mentality that's pervading the game), does provide a glimmer of hope for all those who enjoy doing the cool stuff but can't commit to raiding full-time due to RL commitments or other factors.

Big kudos to you mate...well done.
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Re: Case Study #1 - Gearing upto ICC10 entry as a new 80 Tank

Postby Giggitygoo » Wed Aug 18, 2010 3:24 am

I just started reading this today. Have been aware of it for while but I hate waiting for the next episode so I waited till It was finished before starting.

What a brilliant read! So wouldn’t class this as a failure though. To even get through the doors of ICC in under 24 hours is pretty incredible.

I recently took a break from WoW about mid Ulduar and only came back about 3 months ago. So I had to gain about 1.2K GS before jumping into ICC.

This alone took me more than 24 hours and you’ve done it from a fresh level 80 in under that. Very impressive. :mrgreen:

One suggestion though. As well as posting updates here it would be great if there was a separate link we could visit to just read your updates. I didn’t want to read everyone else’s comments, just your daily experiences and progress. Trolling through the pages trying to find them was a bit annoying. :P
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