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Defiance or Eternal Tower

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Defiance or Eternal Tower

Postby Rilude » Tue Jun 22, 2010 2:44 am

Hello

I've just done a search for the Eternal Tower but I am unable to find anything about this, so I'm sorry if this has been posted before

Should I be using;

Libram of the Eternal Tower - Frost badges

Libram of Defiance - Triumph badges

I've got them both but I still think that the Defiance is better - do you agree / disagree?

Thanks in Advance

.Rilude
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Re: Defiance or Eternal Tower

Postby Marblehead » Tue Jun 22, 2010 2:52 am

Iirc, the Eternal Tower is better. However, the difference is so small that it should be the very last purchase with frost emblems (even after offspec gear).
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Re: Defiance or Eternal Tower

Postby Gamingdevil » Tue Jun 22, 2010 5:32 am

Marblehead wrote:Iirc, the Eternal Tower is better. However, the difference is so small that it should be the very last purchase with frost emblems (even after offspec gear).


It's only better on static fights. For fights that will have it drop off 2 or more times, I think Defiance would be better.
If it is weak, kill it before it gets stronger. If it is strong, weaken it.
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Re: Defiance or Eternal Tower

Postby Marblehead » Wed Jun 23, 2010 2:41 am

Gamingdevil wrote:
Marblehead wrote:Iirc, the Eternal Tower is better. However, the difference is so small that it should be the very last purchase with frost emblems (even after offspec gear).


It's only better on static fights. For fights that will have it drop off 2 or more times, I think Defiance would be better.


Well, maybe it is. Or maybe it isn't. Defiance can drop off too and it isn't 100% proc like Eternal Tower. I haven't used any of these librams for quite a while, since I use Valiance mostly, but I think I remember Defiance dropping off on static fights with insufficient hit rating.

However, this is just my gut feeling. I don't have any hard evidence. I remember seeing a graph from Theck at some point, though.
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Re: Defiance or Eternal Tower

Postby Gamingdevil » Wed Jun 23, 2010 10:24 am

As I recall the uptime for Defiance is about 97% which is close enough. The problem with Eternal Tower is not that it can fall off, it's that it takes 12 seconds at best to fully stack up again, during which time it is quite a bit worse than Defiance. While it is only slightly better at max stacks.
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Re: Defiance or Eternal Tower

Postby Marblehead » Thu Jun 24, 2010 2:35 am

Defiance having 97% uptime, means that it provides 200*0.97=194 dodge rating on average during a fight of x seconds.

Let's say that Eternal Tower takes 15 seconds to fully stack. So for the average dodge rating of Eternal Tower we have:

[ 73 dodge rating * 0 stacks * 3 seconds + 73 dodge rating * 1 stack * 6 seconds + 73 dodge rating * 2 stacks * 6 seconds + 73 dodge rating * 3 stacks * ( x - 15 ) seconds ] / x seconds

Now let's see how many seconds a fight has to be for both libram to be equal.

Code: Select all
[ 73*0*3 + 73*1*6 + 73*2*6 + 73*3*(x-15) ] / x = 194
  <=> 73 * (6+12+3x-45) = 194x
  <=> 3x - 27 = 194x/73
  <=> 219x/73 - 194x/73 = 27
  <=> 25x = 27*73 = 1971 <=> x = 78.84 ~= 79 seconds

So, if the fight permits to use ShoR regularly for more than 79 seconds, then the Eternal Tower gets better than Defiance.


Eternal Tower on ICC bosses:

1) Marrowgar: During Bone Storm, it's easy to refresh both Eternal Tower and Divine Plea.
2) Deathwhisper: Easy to keep it up all the time with all those mobs, even while kiting Deformed Fanatics
3) Gunship: It can drop off, but if you want to keep it up, you can by jumping back and forth between ships slamming axethrowers.
4) Saurfang: It never drops off.
5) Festergut: It never drops off.
6) Rotface: It never drops off.
7) Putricide: It drops off between phases in normal mode. Easy to keep up in heroic mode.
8) Council: Unless tanking Keleseth, it never drops off.
9) Lana'thel: It drops off during air phases, but the 1st land phase lasts 120 seconds and the 2nd land phase lasts 90 seconds.
10) Valithria: It may drop off or it may not. Depends on tactic, raid dps and RNG.
11) Sindragosa: It drops off during air phases but it can be built up on tombs before she comes down again.
12) Lich King: I can't think of a situation in this fight that it would drop off. I could be wrong on this.

From my perspective, I see that Eternal Tower is better than Defiance in every ICC fight except Putri normal, even though it's a small advantage.

However, I'm min-max-ing here. If there is a situation where you'd be in danger at those first few seconds that the tower requires to fully stack and defiance would save your life, then, by all means, use Defiance. I would too.
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Re: Defiance or Eternal Tower

Postby Rilude » Fri Jun 25, 2010 12:49 am

thank you all for the amazing feedback I really appricate it
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Re: Defiance or Eternal Tower

Postby theckhd » Fri Jun 25, 2010 8:14 am

This thread, while several pages back, should answer all of the questions you're interested in.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
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Re: Defiance or Eternal Tower

Postby Awyndel » Sun Jun 27, 2010 7:06 am

Well like was mentioned before, the main thing i'm concerned with is the ramp up time. The first seconds after picking up a mob can often be dangerous if healers are still adapting.

I also don't like the fact that you would potentially have to adapt your rotation at some points where movement or a cooldown or utility spell is needed.

There is also the fact that I swap around librams depending on seal, wether I'm tanking or not, or on the phase of the fight, wich would also increase the number of times it would need to ramp up.

In the end I guess you could call me lazy, I call it convenient, so I can focus on other stuff.
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