Having threat trouble

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Having threat trouble

Postby Thegreatiam » Tue Jun 15, 2010 12:19 am

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-shee ... heoverkill - logged out in my current tank set.

I've recently joined a hardmode progression guild after coming back from a break, gotten caught up gearwise minus my neck/bracers, and am starting to look at fine-tuning my gear as needed. I've noticed that compared to our Warrior and Death Knight tanks, my threat is substantially lacking. My expertise is soft capped at 26 skill, and my hit is over the cap at 315 rating. I've tried subbing in AS on the 969 (Judge > SoR > HS > HotR > Consec > etc), using wings at the start of the fight, etc and I can't seem to put out the threatgen they're capable of, and I'm having our heavy hitting DPS (Shadowmourne DK, Fury Warrior, Mages) get threat capped for the first several seconds of most fights until some gimmick kicks in where I can build a threat lead.

It feels like either Paladins were nerfed to hell and back while I was out, my rotation is wrong, my gear/enchants are wrong, or some combination of those. Is there anything I haven't mentioned here I should try, like STR gems or something? Anything glaringly obvious on my armory?

I've got a 264 Gutbuster but for the start of the fight my TPS seems slower, presumably because of the slow buildup of my seal stacks, and the ToC libram helps some but not enough.

Thanks in advance,
Overkill
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Re: Having threat trouble

Postby Harmacy » Tue Jun 15, 2010 1:07 am

If your DPS is only threat capped for the first several seconds of the fight, as you mention, then it's not a huge issue. DPS should be watching their aggro at the beginning, it's part of the job especially if they outgear you.

Only suggestion I really have is fine-tuning your pulling and initial aggro techniques. Open up with Hand of Reckoning (which deals Holy damage when you taunt) and follow up immediately with your Frisbee. Wait on wings until you have a 5-stack up, to maximize the amount of threat you generate (that 33% weapon damage from SoV adds up to quite a bit).

Paladins were not 'nerfed to hell' but we did have our threat generation scaled back quite a bit. We are no longer OP super-tanks, but rather in line with other classes.

Gear, enchanting, spec, and glyphs all look solid to my eyes. I question your choice in tanking gloves though (when you get enough Frosts, get the Kraken gloves for more EH).
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Re: Having threat trouble

Postby Fiaraa » Tue Jun 15, 2010 2:30 am

Use your 264 gutbuster and love it!
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Re: Having threat trouble

Postby Fiaraa » Tue Jun 15, 2010 2:32 am

Harmacy wrote:Only suggestion I really have is fine-tuning your pulling and initial aggro techniques. Open up with Hand of Reckoning (which deals Holy damage when you taunt) and follow up immediately with your Frisbee. Wait on wings until you have a 5-stack up, to maximize the amount of threat you generate (that 33% weapon damage from SoV adds up to quite a bit).


If you really want to max. it (assuming you can get range without body pulling) start with exorcism->HoR->Frisbee.
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Re: Having threat trouble

Postby lythac » Tue Jun 15, 2010 2:36 am

You seem to have ShoR as your first 6 rather than HotR?
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Re: Having threat trouble

Postby Barathorn » Tue Jun 15, 2010 2:54 am

Thegreatiam wrote:http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Crushridge&cn=Theoverkill - logged out in my current tank set.

I've recently joined a hardmode progression guild after coming back from a break, gotten caught up gearwise minus my neck/bracers, and am starting to look at fine-tuning my gear as needed. I've noticed that compared to our Warrior and Death Knight tanks, my threat is substantially lacking. My expertise is soft capped at 26 skill, and my hit is over the cap at 315 rating. I've tried subbing in AS on the 969 (Judge > SoR > HS > HotR > Consec > etc), using wings at the start of the fight, etc and I can't seem to put out the threatgen they're capable of, and I'm having our heavy hitting DPS (Shadowmourne DK, Fury Warrior, Mages) get threat capped for the first several seconds of most fights until some gimmick kicks in where I can build a threat lead.


Are you getting Tricks of the Trade and Misdirections? These go a long way to cementing your threat lead at the start of the fight. Also check that your dps are not being idiots and blowing trinkets and cool downs prior to you pulling. The Exorcism/Avengers shield combo works really well with twitchy DPS.

It feels like either Paladins were nerfed to hell and back while I was out, my rotation is wrong, my gear/enchants are wrong, or some combination of those. Is there anything I haven't mentioned here I should try, like STR gems or something? Anything glaringly obvious on my armory?


I can't see your armory from work but you don't seem to be doing anything wrong. A parse would enable people here to analyse it in more detail if you are still concerned. Our threat gen is not what it used to be so don't expect to out threat other tanks, those days are long gone.

I've got a 264 Gutbuster but for the start of the fight my TPS seems slower, presumably because of the slow buildup of my seal stacks, and the ToC libram helps some but not enough.

Thanks in advance,
Overkill


This really sounds like a no TotT or MD scenario, you shouldn't have to be struggling for threat.

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Re: Having threat trouble

Postby Gamingdevil » Tue Jun 15, 2010 3:03 am

Since you're overcapped on hit, you could consider using the T10 helm over the one from LDW and using the Cataclysmic Chestguard. 10 expertise is a lot and might help you pump out a bit more threat.
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Re: Having threat trouble

Postby Thegreatiam » Tue Jun 15, 2010 4:51 am

Harmacy wrote:If your DPS is only threat capped for the first several seconds of the fight, as you mention, then it's not a huge issue. DPS should be watching their aggro at the beginning, it's part of the job especially if they outgear you.
Yeah, I agree, but they're spoiled with a warrior tank who puts out so much threat that a rogue can tricks the Shadowmourne DK first.

Barathorn wrote:Are you getting Tricks of the Trade and Misdirections? These go a long way to cementing your threat lead at the start of the fight. Also check that your dps are not being idiots and blowing trinkets and cool downs prior to you pulling. The Exorcism/Avengers shield combo works really well with twitchy DPS.
Not as much, they're used to not needing to and want to get the DPS increase as soon as possible. They're mad that they're getting capped and I'm getting crap for it =(

Harmacy wrote:Paladins were not 'nerfed to hell' but we did have our threat generation scaled back quite a bit. We are no longer OP super-tanks, but rather in line with other classes.
That's what I meant :P

Harmacy wrote:Gear, enchanting, spec, and glyphs all look solid to my eyes. I question your choice in tanking gloves though (when you get enough Frosts, get the Kraken gloves for more EH).
Gamingdevil wrote:Since you're overcapped on hit, you could consider using the T10 helm over the one from LDW and using the Cataclysmic Chestguard. 10 expertise is a lot and might help you pump out a bit more threat.
I've been out of the game for a while and I'm lacking on frost badges. All that gear's on my list of stuff to get, it's just a matter of affording it. Should be able to knock two of those down this week though - probably the helm and maybe the badge cloak for my armor set.

lythac wrote:You seem to have ShoR as your first 6 rather than HotR?
Yeah, I haven't really adjusted my rotation/macros in a while, I figure with the 20% bonus damage and the nerfs that happened a while ago to SoR it's the better threat ability. This is something I planned on changing after I read my own post xD
Fiaraa wrote:If you really want to max. it (assuming you can get range without body pulling) start with exorcism->HoR->Frisbee.
Yep, this is what I do whenever I can.

Thanks for the suggestions guys!
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Re: Having threat trouble

Postby Rodi » Tue Jun 15, 2010 9:25 am

Try Libram of Valiance. Usually only takes a tick or two to proc and almost never falls off once it's going. They might as well remove "have a chance" from the tooltip.
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Re: Having threat trouble

Postby Meloree » Tue Jun 15, 2010 9:54 am

MDs should always all be used at start of fight. It's free, it's stupid not to.

Given 2 MDs, it's safe MOST of the time to be tricksing separate DPS right off the bat - best use is generally affliction lock and shadow priest, because they'll use it to boost their persistent DoTs - but when doing so you definitely want to pay close attention to hit/expertise, because you'll have introduced some RNG into the pull. Warriors and DKs do currently outthreat paladins by quite a healthy margin, but you can certainly stay ahead of the DPS.

It is worth noting that without some threat transfer to the tank, beit warrior or dk or paladin, you are basically guaranteeing "RNG gibs" of various random DPS over the course of the night. If the MDs are going, all tanks should be able to stay ahead of the DPS.

You could link a parse?
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Re: Having threat trouble

Postby Thegreatiam » Tue Jun 15, 2010 1:08 pm

I'll see what I can do, we stopped posting parses a while ago apparently, so I'll record one tonight. Any preference as to what site?

Also, ToC libram doesn't make a big enough difference, some of the DPS are pulling 12-16k TPS at fight start.
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Re: Having threat trouble

Postby Meloree » Tue Jun 15, 2010 2:13 pm

WoL, given the choice.

EDIT: ToC Libram is on the order of 600 tps. That's a pretty healthy difference.
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Re: Having threat trouble

Postby Fiaraa » Tue Jun 15, 2010 3:26 pm

The libram is pretty big for what you're really "giving up".

Also, HoTR over Shield causes the seal to hit 5 that little bit faster, which all helps.
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Re: Having threat trouble

Postby Loras » Sun Jun 27, 2010 8:39 pm

To hijack the thread rather than posting a new one.

Not having threat issues compared to my dps. Having some... issues against a paladin co-tank, though. We have about the same gear, he's using Armsman on gloves, though (compared to my 18 sta) and has Glyph of Avenger Shield (compared to my Salvation). When I have to tank first, I do everything properly (Exo + HoR+ Frizbee) and then go in, waiting for 5 stacks of Vengeance and then blowing Wings (to maximize dps rather than threat, but it's the same). He blows wings at the first second, though, and with his Frizbee doing double damage, his initial burst is much higher, so quite often, if there's no ToT, he takes initial aggro and after that it's quite hard (sometimes impossible) to outaggro him again and take the boss back, unless I taunt (and I hate taunting).

Now, it's a bit embarassing after you say "I'll tank the boss" to end up being the OT, but at the same time my job is to survive, so even on farm content I try to be in my progression gear to maximize survivability.

Shall I just find a way to tweak my threat (especially in the start) so that I prevent this happening somehow or...? What would be your suggestions?
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Re: Having threat trouble

Postby Levantine » Sun Jun 27, 2010 8:55 pm

I'd personally tell him to stop being a twat, it sounds like he's doing it on purpose to me. :/ Definitely raise the issue with him, since from what you've said you're doing everything right and he's either oblivious to the term threat management, or a dick.
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