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Why do stamina trinkets drop where they drop?

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Why do stamina trinkets drop where they drop?

Postby Mozen » Sun Jun 06, 2010 7:51 pm

I was wondering about the design philosophy behind stamina trinket drops.

Before Wrath of the Lich King was even released, Blizzard had stated that they want 10 man and 25 man content to be two distinct progressions, where players can choose to do either or both. With that in mind, I'd like to look at what stamina trinkets are available to the strict 10 tank, beyond those offered as profession perks and holiday events.

Here are the stamina trinkets available to a strict 10 tank, sans holiday trinkets and profession perks.

Tier 7: Essence of Gossamer
Tier 8: Royal Seal of King Llane
Tier 9: Black Heart
Tier 10: Corroded Skeleton Key

Now how about a strict 25 tank? What is available?

Tier 7: Essence of Gossamer
Tier 8: Heart of Iron
Tier 9: Scarab and heroic version plus Black Heart
Tier 10: Sindragosa's Fang and heroic veresion plus Corroded Skeleton Key

With the exception of Royal Seal, the 25 man tank has access to all other stamina trinkets without ever entering a 10 man raid.

And something worth noting, is that in tier 8, the 25 man trinket is easily accessible, as it drops from the first zone of the raid; while the 10 man trinket drops from the last boss of the tier. This effectively means, a strict 10 tank does not need double stamina trinkets until at least Ulduar hard modes.

The tier 9 and 10 designs also means that we are expected to be able to tank heroic ToC10 with the Black Heart and the Royal Seal, and then even while we're facing Lich King heroic, we at most need the Skeleton Key and the Royal Seal. However, a lot of people who missed Ulduar or had no luck for the drop, are stuck with the Black Heart. It's not like a 10 man raid can easily take 20 minutes each week and down Yogg-Saron just to farm the trinket for the tank. (While a 25 man group could easily just take 20 minutes each week and farm the Heart of Iron.)

Besides "design miss" and the conclusion that "10 man tanks don't need so much stamina", what's the rationale behind such a significant difference in the choices available in stamina trinkets?

Why is it that 25 man tanks get significant stamina trinket upgrades in each tier, while the 10 man tank is stuck with using a 219 trinket as second trinket while facing the absolute last boss of the expansion, at item level 271? (Note that I have not done Lich King at all, so I don't know about the trinket selection there.)
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Re: Why do stamina trinkets drop where they drop?

Postby pfunkmort » Sun Jun 06, 2010 11:54 pm

for what it's worth, we saw one 25 man trinket drop in ulduar - and it was after toc came out. Our tanks were running essence and a dodge trinket through algalon 10.

I know you preface your question with 'aside from the idea that 10 mans don't need as much stam'...but the reality is that they probably don't. One of the recurring issues that blizzard has brought up is that 10 mans are hard to tune because they're too easy for people in 25 man gear. But the reality is, if you were to run corroded and the yogg trink, you'd be about 30-40 stam less for the slots than when I killed lk 25. The reality is that the 25 man stuff hits harder...so running without the 25 man trinkets is approximately the level of "uh oh" that people in 25 mans are getting.

As for the other 'except this...'...I think most of that is in line, considering the low droprate of the heart of iron, and the fact that most tanks went through ulduar with only one stam trinket. The only real caveat to that is toc - which was a short instance, and arguably easier when it came out than the ulduar hard modes that many raiders were working on. Perhaps they thought putting in a stam trinket in a small loot list like that would have made it too easy to gear up (picture a 25 man tank wearing a yogg trink and an essence - if the 10 and 25 drop better trinkets, that's a pretty huge shot in the arm - considering).
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Re: Why do stamina trinkets drop where they drop?

Postby Barathorn » Mon Jun 07, 2010 12:35 am

While I do agree there have been some gaping holes in drops for the 10 man raider [cloak springs to mind] I think in general that Blizzard have done an outstanding job this expansion and that really there is very little to actually criticise. The standard practise is for holes in drops to be catered for by badge items, this is still the case.

25 man tanks do need higher stamina and while the drop zones probably reflect this too readily I don't really think that 10 man tanks got treated harshly on trinkets.

With the change to the same loot table in Cataclysm we can only expect things to get better for 10 man raiders.

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Re: Why do stamina trinkets drop where they drop?

Postby Shoju » Mon Jun 07, 2010 8:11 am

I have to agree, 10man tanks didn't see the short end of the stick that 10m dpsers saw with trinkets, and plate dpsers saw with gear statted "correctly. " (WTB Expertise in T8)

The only gaping hole in 10m tanking drops throughout this expansion would have been tanking chest, during T8/T9, where the only upgrade from T7/Naxx10 Was your tier chest which dropped from Yogg. While my guild killed Yogg multiple times, we never saw the Conqueror Chest token drop (or the royal seal for that matter, or the ignis trinket)

I know that when I first started tanking in ToC10 I was still using a blue quality tanking chestpiece (tanking was an offspec for me at the time) as the 10m non set piece is from Sapph, and then there isn't another off set chest available in 10m content until you are killing Anub in ToC10.

BUT. The change in ToC that brought Conq emblems to heroics made it possible to get the t8.25 chest piece from emblems, which was my first epic chest piece of the expac.

Still, that is only one slot for the 10m tank to have trouble filling.
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Re: Why do stamina trinkets drop where they drop?

Postby steadypal » Mon Jun 07, 2010 12:02 pm

well to be fair, the only tank wpns in t9 content came from toc 10 :P


and there are no real tank wpns from icc25 except off of LK, or u count the last word off of putricide..


putricide 10 did drop a nice trinket to.
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Re: Why do stamina trinkets drop where they drop?

Postby Shoju » Mon Jun 07, 2010 12:06 pm

steadypal wrote:well to be fair, the only tank wpns in t9 content came from toc 10 :P

I know that it is a nitpick but:

Disagrees

and there are no real tank wpns from icc25 except off of LK, or u count the last word off of putricide..


putricide 10 did drop a nice trinket to.



Didn't realize that Last Word was the only tank weapon in ICC25. The trinket disucssion was mainly about stamina trinkets, and this is generally considered an armor trinket.
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Re: Why do stamina trinkets drop where they drop?

Postby theckhd » Tue Jun 08, 2010 6:18 am

steadypal wrote:and there are no real tank wpns from icc25 except off of LK, or u count the last word off of putricide..

Last Word is my default go-to tanking weapon. I rarely swap to anything else unless it's my heroic Gutbuster for extra DPS.
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Re: Why do stamina trinkets drop where they drop?

Postby JdgDredd » Wed Jun 09, 2010 2:32 am

While the stamina trinkets are low on the 10 man side of things, effective health trinkets in general have always been there. I think if you look at how the last couple of badge trinkets have been, you can sort of see Blizzard thinking more towards effective health in their gear deciding for 10 and 25 man raids. If you include armor trinkets and think more towards effective health, then the gap isn't as large.
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Re: Why do stamina trinkets drop where they drop?

Postby Flex » Thu Jun 10, 2010 9:41 am

Shoju wrote:The only gaping hole in 10m tanking drops throughout this expansion would have been tanking chest, during T8/T9, where the only upgrade from T7/Naxx10 Was your tier chest which droppe


Cloaks!

10 mans have sucked for cloaks. A tier where the only cloak option was the Tribute chest? Fuck you.
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Re: Why do stamina trinkets drop where they drop?

Postby Shoju » Thu Jun 10, 2010 10:30 am

eh, Cloaks were a gaping hole for everyone, so I discounted it, as it wasn't a tank specific hole in itemization. I don't know what is more frustrating.

going a tier with no cloaks,
or the next tier, there are cloaks that drop everywhere that don't seem to compete with any of the emblem available cloaks (at least not for anything that I play)
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Re: Why do stamina trinkets drop where they drop?

Postby Vorianloken » Fri Jun 11, 2010 12:28 am

Shoju wrote:I have to agree, 10man tanks didn't see the short end of the stick that 10m dpsers saw with trinkets, and plate dpsers saw with gear statted "correctly. " (WTB Expertise in T8)

The only gaping hole in 10m tanking drops throughout this expansion would have been tanking chest, during T8/T9, where the only upgrade from T7/Naxx10 Was your tier chest which dropped from Yogg. While my guild killed Yogg multiple times, we never saw the Conqueror Chest token drop (or the royal seal for that matter, or the ignis trinket)


http://www.wowhead.com/item=46039 was there too in addition to T8 :)
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Re: Why do stamina trinkets drop where they drop?

Postby Shoju » Fri Jun 11, 2010 10:39 am

Vorianloken wrote:
Shoju wrote:I have to agree, 10man tanks didn't see the short end of the stick that 10m dpsers saw with trinkets, and plate dpsers saw with gear statted "correctly. " (WTB Expertise in T8)

The only gaping hole in 10m tanking drops throughout this expansion would have been tanking chest, during T8/T9, where the only upgrade from T7/Naxx10 Was your tier chest which dropped from Yogg. While my guild killed Yogg multiple times, we never saw the Conqueror Chest token drop (or the royal seal for that matter, or the ignis trinket)


http://www.wowhead.com/item=46039 was there too in addition to T8 :)


I wasn't counting hard modes or algalon. The number of 10 man strict guilds who got algalon down pre-TOC10 can be counted on 2 hands.
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Re: Why do stamina trinkets drop where they drop?

Postby Senador » Mon Jun 14, 2010 7:17 am

I wasn't counting hard modes or algalon. The number of 10 man strict guilds who got algalon down pre-TOC10 can be counted on 2 hands.


With due respect, its odd to exclude a 10 man only hard boss when it’s exception is pointed out, while using one of the hardest 25 hard mode bosses as an example yourself with the weapons pointed out above. Even now, a solid 9 months after he became available, heroic Anub 25 (The only source of a viable tanking weapon in 25 man Tier 9 content) has been killed by less than 4% of raiding guilds…
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Re: Why do stamina trinkets drop where they drop?

Postby Shoju » Mon Jun 14, 2010 9:44 am

You're absolutely right, and you're

RUINING MY ARGUMENT! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

All things considered though, I wish that they would fix some of the itemization holes.
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Re: Why do stamina trinkets drop where they drop?

Postby Rusa » Wed Jun 16, 2010 10:26 pm

Eh, from a 10 man strict guild here, we got screwed (tank wise at least) boots on Ulduar and ToC was capes. Hate the expression but annoying itemization is annoying.
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