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4pc Tier 10 for a ICC HMs

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Re: 4pc Tier 10 for a ICC HMs

Postby pfunkmort » Tue Jun 08, 2010 1:41 pm

to sort of put it in perspective, and sort of build on what barathorn said above, the prot paladin from adept doesn't even go for four piece.

I mean...you're probably not min/maxing if you make sure you have your chef hat on before every pull, but as long as you've looked over what you're doing, there are a number of gear sets and rationalizations for any encounter.
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Re: 4pc Tier 10 for a ICC HMs

Postby Meloree » Tue Jun 08, 2010 3:35 pm

Gamingdevil wrote:I highly doubt speccing Reckoning gave you "your healthy lead back". It's a decent threat talent, but I suspect that you're only perceiving it to help you that much. At about a 100 tps per point, it's not all that much. Feel free to spec it though if you need it.


So, I've avoided contributing to this topic. I have a gear guide lying around somewhere, like it or don't. I don't think the statements attributed to a nameless high-end paladin are valid - but I'm also not sure that something hasn't been lost in translation. In addition, what works for one guild/group doesn't always work for another. I certainly love DSac/DG, even if I almost never spec it on farm-night (2/51/18 ftw).

The Reckoning thing, though - I think Reckoning may have more DPS (TPS) value than we give it credit for, when we start to use the aggressive gearing and specs typically prevalent in farm-content. Here's a Saurfang parse from a week ago. It's not the best parse I've ever generated, but it's the most recent. I got 4 reckoning procs, worth 32 melee swings and 32 SoV procs, in total 29% of my melee swings, and 18% of my SoV procs, if my math doesn't suck. The grand total DPS attributable to Reckoning is roughly 900, or roughly 10% of the total. The TPS contribution is around 1600 TPS. Now, that's 20% higher due to buff, and 100% higher due to "I'm wearing way more DPS gear than he calculated around", but using a flat value of 100TPS seems to undervalue the talent substantially. Reckoning seems to scale pretty decently with a 2.6 speed weapon - I'll take a 10% dps increase (~7% TPS increase) for 5 points. I know it's on a very fast swinging boss, but it's also on a boss where I only tank half the time.
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Re: 4pc Tier 10 for a ICC HMs

Postby exiledknight » Tue Jun 08, 2010 5:16 pm

I will continue to keep the name private because I do not think it matter's nor contributes nothing to the thread. I will copy and paste the discussion regarding the legs here.

1. Why are you using Legguards of Lost Hope even with them being the highest stam option they're a lower EH than Pillars of Might. However, for those paladins thats go for 4-piece which most high end pally tanks do why do you use the shoulders when they are the worst possible tier piece of the 5 to get. You should have your tier pants on if you are able to get a 277 version. Hit is good for threat but it doesn't seem like you're really all the concerned with it considering your talents.


I hope now that you change your gear immediately and stop using those terrible pants and pick up the tier pants you're in need of expertise anyway considering Sindragosa parry hastes and one is enough to kill a tank which is probably why both of your tanks die.

As for the legs: Legguards of Lost Hope are as bad as I am making them out to be. The reason why I choose to wear the tier pants are as follows:

1. I'm not dying often if ever, to need the EH given by the crafted pants
2. I'm starving for expertise without them
3. They give me the set 4 piece bonus
4. Compared to the Shoulders they are a better item.

I'm not quite sure why you're questioning me and/or attempting to prove me wrong, I'm pretty confident in saying that I've established myself as a prot paladin considering I was the first paladin in the world to tank Lich King as a main tank on a kill, as far as I know all prot pallies brought are only OT used for stunning, cooldowns, and AoE taunting valks. Perhaps you should be taking the suggestions I make instead of trying to disprove my thoughts.

The last sentence is where I decided it was time to ask the greater tankadin community regarding this. Maybe I am missing something here and misunderstood something, maybe he just does things different and it works great for him. I am loooking for the why, especially since mel's gearing guide says the tier legs are our third best option.
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Re: 4pc Tier 10 for a ICC HMs

Postby golfinguy » Tue Jun 08, 2010 6:53 pm

If the above is what the argument boils down to, I agree with your anonymous adviser - the tier legs are better if your goal is the 4PC bonus.

Now - is the 4PC bonus something ALL the top tanks are getting now? That is where I'm lost. Didn't believe it to be valuable enough to swap all the gear around to get.
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Re: 4pc Tier 10 for a ICC HMs

Postby Kihra » Tue Jun 08, 2010 11:43 pm

I happened across your thread with this particular guild, so I've read the whole thread. I'll respect your desire to not "out" the paladin in question, but maybe he'll come post here and defend himself. :)

There is some context that you left out, namely that he was talking about how to spec and gear for 25 HM LK (which he has killed), and his bias in particular was towards being the shambler tank in P1 and the MT in later phases on HM LK. That means that he is the tank that has to maintain threat in the later phases when being repeatedly hit with threat-reducing cooldowns like Pain Suppression, Safeguard and when using his own personal Salvation cooldown. I guess that biases him towards Reckoning.

DG is not a particularly strong cooldown for Soul Reaper because of its short duration, and you can do fine omitting it in favor of stronger cooldowns like the ones above, which either last longer or reduce damage by a larger percentage (or both). I think the paladin in question has decided it's non-essential as a raidwide cooldown for HM LK. That's the part I happen to disagree with, but if they have sufficient cooldowns from other sources, I can see why he'd think that.

4pc T10 can give you favorable RNG with the shamblers in P1, but there are strats that take the RNG out of shambler and plague handling (the Premo strat). It can help with the melee hits around Soul Reaper time, but with cooldowns running, it's not that significant. I don't view 4pc T10 as being a requirement on this fight by any stretch.

I think the reason he favors the tier legs is that he doesn't use Glyph of SoV. He has Glyph of Holy Wrath slotted instead, so he would be horribly expertise starved without the tier legs. I think this is leading him to be more biased in favor of expertise.

In my admittedly limited experience (mastered P1, wiping in P2) with the fight, I don't think Glyph of Holy Wrath is a requirement for the fight, but it may be with the strategy his guild is using. Anyway, I think he's wrong to dismiss your 277 pants, since the expertise on the tier pants is a complete waste if you just have the Glyph of SoV equipped. You're better off continuing to use Pillars of Might or Legguards of Lost Hope.

I don't know if he needs a 15 second Holy Wrath for P1 or P2. I can state unequivocally that if you just use the Premo strat with the ghoul OT that you don't need a 15 second Holy Wrath in P1. I haven't made it out of P2 yet in HM LK, though, so it's possible he uses a 15 second Holy Wrath for later phases.

TLDR: He's treating you unfairly because he's heavily biased towards the strategy his guild happens to be using, when there are other approaches that can be taken on the fight that would not require him to gear the way he does. I think it's important to remember that you can be a fantastic tank execution-wise and still have some funny ideas and biases about things. :)
Last edited by Kihra on Wed Jun 09, 2010 2:18 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: 4pc Tier 10 for a ICC HMs

Postby Gamingdevil » Wed Jun 09, 2010 1:47 am

exiledknight wrote:I will continue to keep the name private because I do not think it matter's nor contributes nothing to the thread. I will copy and paste the discussion regarding the legs here.

1. Why are you using Legguards of Lost Hope even with them being the highest stam option they're a lower EH than Pillars of Might. However, for those paladins thats go for 4-piece which most high end pally tanks do why do you use the shoulders when they are the worst possible tier piece of the 5 to get. You should have your tier pants on if you are able to get a 277 version. Hit is good for threat but it doesn't seem like you're really all the concerned with it considering your talents.


I hope now that you change your gear immediately and stop using those terrible pants and pick up the tier pants you're in need of expertise anyway considering Sindragosa parry hastes and one is enough to kill a tank which is probably why both of your tanks die.

As for the legs: Legguards of Lost Hope are as bad as I am making them out to be. The reason why I choose to wear the tier pants are as follows:

1. I'm not dying often if ever, to need the EH given by the crafted pants
2. I'm starving for expertise without them
3. They give me the set 4 piece bonus
4. Compared to the Shoulders they are a better item.

I'm not quite sure why you're questioning me and/or attempting to prove me wrong, I'm pretty confident in saying that I've established myself as a prot paladin considering I was the first paladin in the world to tank Lich King as a main tank on a kill, as far as I know all prot pallies brought are only OT used for stunning, cooldowns, and AoE taunting valks. Perhaps you should be taking the suggestions I make instead of trying to disprove my thoughts.

The last sentence is where I decided it was time to ask the greater tankadin community regarding this. Maybe I am missing something here and misunderstood something, maybe he just does things different and it works great for him. I am loooking for the why, especially since mel's gearing guide says the tier legs are our third best option.


Not to be taken wrongly, since I don't know the entire context of the conversation. But to me he sounds like an ass acting all high and mighty.

The only good thing about the tier legs imo, is that they provide a good chunk of expertise, for other purposes, they are rather weak.

Also, I was under the impression the tier shoulders were a great piece to pick up. Only missing out on a gem slot compared to the alternative (Sanctified Lightsworn Shoulderguards vs Boneguard Commander's Pauldrons for a total of 18 stamina more on commander and 8 parry more on T10 if you socket full stamina)
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Re: 4pc Tier 10 for a ICC HMs

Postby Barathorn » Wed Jun 09, 2010 2:23 am

Kihra wrote:TLDR: He's treating you a bit unfairly because he's heavily biased towards the strategy his guild happens to be using, when there are other approaches that can be taken on the fight that would not require him to gear the way he does. I think it's important to remember that you can be a fantastic tank execution-wise and still have some funny ideas and biases about things. :)


I agree with Kihra, everyone does things differently but the 'I am in the top xxx rated guild so I know what I am saying' attitude as I mentioned before does not automatically make you an expert on anything and only makes you look to be self centred. However in their defence the paladin in question has geared in a specific way for a specific situation and that obviously works for that guild so kudos to them. They don't need to explain themselves if they do not wish to.

I should also say that I am not a fan of these sort of threads. They always lead to arguments rather than rational discussions when the OP or object of scrutiny starts to post and do nothing to forward the community as a whole. People gear in a certain way for specific reasons and I don't think it is right for us to criticise people based on minimal evidence. Sometimes yes they may be ill informed but other times they may be gearing for a specific situation that we don't know about.

Either way, trying to prove someone wrong on an internet forum is an exercise in futility often taken up by those with far too much time on their hands. We can all be guilty of this so preview before you post :wink: .

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Re: 4pc Tier 10 for a ICC HMs

Postby Boyfriend » Wed Jun 09, 2010 3:26 am

I'll take this apart piece by piece.

exiledknight wrote:1. Why are you using Legguards of Lost Hope even with them being the highest stam option they're a lower EH than Pillars of Might. However, for those paladins thats go for 4-piece which most high end pally tanks do why do you use the shoulders when they are the worst possible tier piece of the 5 to get. You should have your tier pants on if you are able to get a 277 version. Hit is good for threat but it doesn't seem like you're really all the concerned with it considering your talents.


Not much points here, though for later reference he partly aknowledges that Pillars of Might are the best EH option. Shoulders being the worst tier piece is very debatable, shoulders are identically itemized to Boneguard Commanders (apart from 1 less socket which applies to all tier pieces), while Tier legs are differently itemized from non-tier options. Since Tier shoulders are identically itemized to Boneguards I don't see how they can be any worse.

I hope now that you change your gear immediately and stop using those terrible pants and pick up the tier pants you're in need of expertise anyway considering Sindragosa parry hastes and one is enough to kill a tank which is probably why both of your tanks die.


We have already established that Pillars of Might are the best EH legs, so if tanks die you should use them. Also Sindragosa is an easy boss nowadays and why a LK progressing tank would pick up items for a boss they have on farm is beyond me.

As for the legs: Legguards of Lost Hope are as bad as I am making them out to be. The reason why I choose to wear the tier pants are as follows:

1. I'm not dying often if ever, to need the EH given by the crafted pants


So you're basically only interested in threat, this invalidates your point concerning Sindragosa, if tank death is an issue you should use Pillars.

2. I'm starving for expertise without them


True, maybe your threat is bad or you care about high dps on parses but otherwise this is irrelevant.

3. They give me the set 4 piece bonus


Since you never die, I don't see why you'd want the 4 piece.

4. Compared to the Shoulders they are a better item.


You cannot wear legs on your shoulders.

I'm not quite sure why you're questioning me and/or attempting to prove me wrong, I'm pretty confident in saying that I've established myself as a prot paladin considering I was the first paladin in the world to tank Lich King as a main tank on a kill, as far as I know all prot pallies brought are only OT used for stunning, cooldowns, and AoE taunting valks. Perhaps you should be taking the suggestions I make instead of trying to disprove my thoughts.


Well since as you said you never die, this also clearly hardly gives you a distinction. Most paladins do what they are better at, and if he's not doing cooldowns as a MT or stunning valks then he's being carried.

The last sentence is where I decided it was time to ask the greater tankadin community regarding this. Maybe I am missing something here and misunderstood something, maybe he just does things different and it works great for him. I am loooking for the why, especially since mel's gearing guide says the tier legs are our third best option.



Basically he's right that Tier Legs are the best threat piece for the slot, Morrowgar legs are worse for threat and worse for EH than Pillars of Might. In a properly equipped arsenal you'll have Tier Legs and Pillars and switch depending on situation.

Switching from Pillars to Tier legs is a HUGE EH loss, LK does not parry haste if you're not having threat issues, which I don't see how you can have if you're not even speccing into AM then by using tier legs you're trading a gigantic amount of EH for totally worthless threat. If he never dies then sure he might aswell use Threat Gear, but then I don't see why he cares about T10 bonus.

Morrowgar legs are bad yes, you should be using Pillars of Might if you have survivability issues; but if you don't want to take items for a Threat Set then using Morrowgar Legs in your Threat set is perfectly acceptable.
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Re: 4pc Tier 10 for a ICC HMs

Postby inthedrops » Wed Jun 09, 2010 6:04 am

All I can say, is that I wish I had TWO piece tier 4. I'm almost all ilvl 277 gear, but zero tier piece 277. Historically "shared items" with DPS/Healing classes are extremely hard to get (tokens). DPS seems to save their DKP for trinkets and tokens and one or two rare items. So I bid on any tank item that drops which is an upgrade at the time. The only time I don't pick it up is when it's a upgrade for another tank or it's a side upgrade.

Tokens for me come after all the DPS get theirs.

Based on where I stand, if I had a choice, I'd go back in time and make sure I picked up two heroic tokens. I have zero interest in four for LK. I'm getting by fine with zero.
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Re: 4pc Tier 10 for a ICC HMs

Postby theckhd » Wed Jun 09, 2010 6:14 am

Meloree wrote:The Reckoning thing, though - I think Reckoning may have more DPS (TPS) value than we give it credit for, when we start to use the aggressive gearing and specs typically prevalent in farm-content. Here's a Saurfang parse from a week ago. It's not the best parse I've ever generated, but it's the most recent. I got 4 reckoning procs, worth 32 melee swings and 32 SoV procs, in total 29% of my melee swings, and 18% of my SoV procs, if my math doesn't suck. The grand total DPS attributable to Reckoning is roughly 900, or roughly 10% of the total. The TPS contribution is around 1600 TPS. Now, that's 20% higher due to buff, and 100% higher due to "I'm wearing way more DPS gear than he calculated around", but using a flat value of 100TPS seems to undervalue the talent substantially. Reckoning seems to scale pretty decently with a 2.6 speed weapon - I'll take a 10% dps increase (~7% TPS increase) for 5 points. I know it's on a very fast swinging boss, but it's also on a boss where I only tank half the time.


Each Reckoning proc gives you an additional weapon swing, up to 4. With 4 Reckoning procs, you would at most be able to gain 4*4=16 swings with a 1.6-speed weapon, not 32. With a 2.6-speed weapon it will be even less due to clipping of the 8-second buff duration.

I think you're erroneously counting the melee swings you would normally have without the Reckoning proc into your total, doubling the actual effect of reckoning in your calculations.

Checking the numbers: You made 107 melee swings, 16 of which were due to Reckoning (14.95%). Your melees did 326158 damage, or 3048 damage on average (this is mostly due to your unnaturally high crit rate in that gear set, I assume - 41%). So you got 48768 damage from Reckoning melees.

We can similarly calculate SoV damage: You got 173 procs for 290724 damage, or 1681 per proc. Assuming 16 of those were due to Reckoning, that's 26896 damage from Seals.

So that's 75.6k damage total (and 13.9k threat) in 171 seconds, or 443 DPS (and 813 TPS). If you had a full 5 points, which your post suggests, that's 88.6 DPS and 162 TPS per point, which is on-par with what I'd expect if you were fully tricked out in your DPS set with a 2.6 speed weapon. For a tank in survival gear with a 1.6-speed weapon, that value would be considerably lower, closer to the 100 TPS value simulated (though a bit higher due to gear inflation - I think that 100 TPS value is simulated using mostly 264-level gear).


Just to see the gear effect, here's a recent Saurfang parse of my own. I should've been using my default gear set, so no DPS slant whatsoever. Given the uptime of Blessing of Light, I used Last Word and didn't switch out for a slow 2.6-speed weapon.

My average melee is only about 1298 (170 melees for 220652 damage total), and my SoV is only around 778 (215 procs for 167218 damage). So if we use those values for your 4 Reckoning procs, we're only talking about 16*(1298+779) = 33.2k damage and 61.7k threat in 171 seconds, or 194 DPS and 361 TPS. That's only 39 DPS and 72 TPS per point, well under the simulated values (as expected, since you're only tanking half-time).
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Re: 4pc Tier 10 for a ICC HMs

Postby Boyfriend » Wed Jun 09, 2010 6:25 am

theckhd wrote:Each Reckoning proc gives you an additional weapon swing, up to 4. With 4 Reckoning procs, you would at most be able to gain 4*4=16 swings with a 1.6-speed weapon, not 32. With a 2.6-speed weapon it will be even less due to clipping of the 8-second buff duration.


Might be completely confused right now but isn't it possible that sometimes you get all 4 swings with a 2.6 speed weapon? Depending when during the swing timer reckoning procced.

Swing 1 at 0.0, 2 at 2.6, 3 at 5.2 and 4 at 7.8 seems possible, so you actually have a ~7.5% chance to get 4 swings and a 92.5% chance to get 3.

That's probably what you meant but it was a bit unclear. (I guess I'm nitpicking and should hide now)
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Re: 4pc Tier 10 for a ICC HMs

Postby theckhd » Wed Jun 09, 2010 6:44 am

exiledknight wrote:I'm not quite sure why you're questioning me and/or attempting to prove me wrong, I'm pretty confident in saying that I've established myself as a prot paladin considering I was the first paladin in the world to tank Lich King as a main tank on a kill, as far as I know all prot pallies brought are only OT used for stunning, cooldowns, and AoE taunting valks. Perhaps you should be taking the suggestions I make instead of trying to disprove my thoughts.

To be honest, this isn't a compelling argument. Main-tanking LK is not that stressful from a threat point of view. Even less so if your raid is properly giving you rotating Misdirects. Phase 1 might be stressful, but the later stages of the fight aren't at all because your DPS has lots of time spent on other targets.

Rather than repeat the points Boyfriend and Khira made, I'll just point out a few things:

1) Paladins going for 4-piece and tanking anything threatening will still want max EH, which means using the Pillars. You lose less survivability by using the other 4 pieces than you do by using tier legs in any set-up.

2) I'm not sure why he thinks "most high end pally tanks" pick 4-piece. It's not a bad cooldown, but it's not particularly amazing either. It's certainly nice to have extra cooldowns for HMLK, but that's also a fight where you definitely want the extra EH from Pillars.

3) I'm not sure why he's worried about being "expertise-starved." Dropping the SoV glyph is a significant hit to expertise, but there's no penalty for being under the soft cap. Your threat output will be lower, but that's something you can work around. Glyphs are swappable fight-to-fight, after all.

4) Beyond that point, the expertise on the legs is mostly wasted if you have the right gear. I use 4-piece sometimes, and I'm still sitting at 26 expertise from Glyph+talents+Grinning Skull Greatboots+racial. The expertise on the legs would be a complete waste for me, as it would only be half as effective.

5) He seems to have a very low opinion of the Legguards of Lost Hope. I'm not sure why. Let's do a quick threat audit, using Pillars as a baseline:
LoLH: -23 STR, +85 Hit. At 3.08 TPS per point of STR and 3.18 TPS per point of Hit, that's a net TPS increase of 199.5.
277T10: -23 STR, +93 Exp. At 3.79 TPS per point of Expertise, that's a net change of 281.6 TPS. However, if 46.5 of that expertise (half) is above cap, it drops to 193.5 TPS. In my case, all of it would be above cap, so the tier legs would only be 105.4 TPS. In either of those two cases, the LoLH would be the superior threat option.
Combine that with the fact that LoLH has more stamina and exactly the same avoidance rating contribution (though perhaps slightly less desireable as it has more dodge and less defense), and it's hard to make an argument that LoLH isn't superior unless you're far under expertise cap. Which shouldn't be the case for most tanks with the SoV glyph, unless their raid comp forces them to reglyph for HMLK (again, sort of a special case).

6) In short: Don't bother taking advice from this person. He may be in a more progressed guild, but he doesn't have a strong enough understanding of the underlying paladin mechanics to be giving you gearing advice. Maybe he's great at not standing in fire and holding aggro, but he doesn't make intelligent gearing decisions. You'll get much better advice here, notably because it's backed by numbers and not "I must be right because my guild has killed X."
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Re: 4pc Tier 10 for a ICC HMs

Postby theckhd » Wed Jun 09, 2010 6:47 am

Boyfriend wrote:
theckhd wrote:Each Reckoning proc gives you an additional weapon swing, up to 4. With 4 Reckoning procs, you would at most be able to gain 4*4=16 swings with a 1.6-speed weapon, not 32. With a 2.6-speed weapon it will be even less due to clipping of the 8-second buff duration.


Might be completely confused right now but isn't it possible that sometimes you get all 4 swings with a 2.6 speed weapon? Depending when during the swing timer reckoning procced.

Swing 1 at 0.0, 2 at 2.6, 3 at 5.2 and 4 at 7.8 seems possible, so you actually have a ~7.5% chance to get 4 swings and a 92.5% chance to get 3.

That's probably what you meant but it was a bit unclear. (I guess I'm nitpicking and should hide now)

Yep, that's exactly what I meant. On average, you won't get all 4 swings, because Reckoning doesn't always proc immediately before a weapon swing. You could probably model it as a flat probability distribution (i.e. Reckoning has an equal chance of proccing at any point during the swing timer), in which case the average number of swings you'd gain is 0.075*4+0.925*3 = 3.075.

In other words, with a 2.6-speed weapon you'd have to be exceptionally lucky to get 16 extra swings from 4 Reckoning procs. You'd be much more likely to get 12-13 extra swings.
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Re: 4pc Tier 10 for a ICC HMs

Postby Meloree » Wed Jun 09, 2010 8:31 am

theckhd wrote:Each Reckoning proc gives you an additional weapon swing, up to 4. With 4 Reckoning procs, you would at most be able to gain 4*4=16 swings with a 1.6-speed weapon, not 32. With a 2.6-speed weapon it will be even less due to clipping of the 8-second buff duration.


The crack - I was definitely smoking it. I multiplied by 8 (seconds) instead of 4 (swings). Stupid.

That said, don't forget haste - there's a lot of it going around in a raid - 20% windfury/IIT, 3% from your Ret or Boomkin - the swing timer on a 2.6 weapon is ~2.11s with those two buffs. You'll get your 4 swings most of the time.
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Re: 4pc Tier 10 for a ICC HMs

Postby theckhd » Wed Jun 09, 2010 8:37 am

Meloree wrote:That said, don't forget haste - there's a lot of it going around in a raid - 20% windfury/IIT, 3% from your Ret or Boomkin - the swing timer on a 2.6 weapon is ~2.11s with those two buffs. You'll get your 4 swings most of the time.

Also a good point.

Either way, the sims seem to accurately predict Reckoning's effect for the gear they're performed in. The error occurred in assuming that 100TPS was independent of gear set. It will obviously scale favorably with DPS gear and even more noticeably so with a 2.6-speed weapon.

I seem to remember doing a simulation of Reckoning's weapon speed dependence at one point, but I have no idea which thread and don't have time to search through my old posts for it. In any event, it's probably out of date by now.
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