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4pc Tier 10 for a ICC HMs

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4pc Tier 10 for a ICC HMs

Postby exiledknight » Sat Jun 05, 2010 3:33 pm

Ok so my understanding up until recently has been at the 277 ilvl if you are pursuing your 4pc bonus that it should consist of your shoulders, chest, hands, and head. I was recently told by a tankadin in one of the world's top guild's that in no way is that correct, and that due to the buff and the dps being put out that the tier legs are the way to go over the pillars of might or the heroic legguards of lost hope. I had noticed dps starting to ride my ass just slightly since the 20% buff up until he also reccomended switching to reckoning being a MT since its almost never you use Dsac, that pretty much eliminated that issues and had given me my healthy lead back. However now that I have got the majority of my non tier items out of the way and the majority of our other paladins and priests have their heroic tokens I should start accumulating them and rather quickly since we have a whole one raiding warlock in the guild. I know it is obvious to upgrade the 3 peices that are a given first, however should I be looking to use the tier shoulders or legs? I already have both the heroic bone commander's pauldron's as well as the heroic legguards of lost hope and the pillars of might. I know without the legguards then hit becomes a premium but it also free's up a glyph slot.
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Re: 4pc Tier 10 for a ICC HMs

Postby blakk » Sat Jun 05, 2010 3:43 pm

could you post a link to your gear and a WoL?
i'm not exactly sure what your goal is. do you want more threat?
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Re: 4pc Tier 10 for a ICC HMs

Postby exiledknight » Sat Jun 05, 2010 7:48 pm

Here is my armory
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-shee ... iledknight

I am not really concerned about threat, the closest to any issue I have had is one or two dps riding me, but they never had to stop slow down dps etc. This was in reference to an overall gear set that would be used for the majority of ICC HMs, nothing specialized like for fester, saurfang, bql, or sindy.

To clarify, he basically told me the leggaurds of lost hope were complete crap and that they should not be in any set what so ever and that the t10 277 legs should be in ever gear set you have. Currently I use the pillars in my armor set and the leggaurds in everything else. My guild uses epgp so I was able to get the boneguard commanders pauldrons for half cost via a minor upgrade, because my plan is to have the 277 tier shoulder's for fights where the 4 pc is favored.
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Re: 4pc Tier 10 for a ICC HMs

Postby blakk » Sat Jun 05, 2010 7:53 pm

pillars are best in slot for survival.
you're in your pvp set atm so i can't tell what you're using. do you use a tank weapon or a slow dps weapon? are you using the libram of valiance?
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Re: 4pc Tier 10 for a ICC HMs

Postby Gamingdevil » Sun Jun 06, 2010 12:44 am

I highly doubt speccing Reckoning gave you "your healthy lead back". It's a decent threat talent, but I suspect that you're only perceiving it to help you that much. At about a 100 tps per point, it's not all that much. Feel free to spec it though if you need it.

That being said, I spec DG and I do use it often. Even if you don't want to soak damage from the raid, you can just cancel Divine Sacrifice and the the whole raid (including you) gets a 20% damage reduction. That's a pretty nifty cooldown, for say, Soul Reaper.

If you really need the expertise, get the Tier legs for your threat set, otherwise, I'd stick with Pillars of Might. You could wear Legguards of Lost Hope if you're desperate for hit though.
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Re: 4pc Tier 10 for a ICC HMs

Postby exiledknight » Sun Jun 06, 2010 2:50 pm

I am logged out in my pve gear, I apologized for any time wasted there, I forgot to relog after I had my power flicker and d/c me while doing some bgs. In terms of threat, most fights I do use valiance, and I use heroic Last Word. If reckoning is only worth that much per point then I suspect the week the 20% buff came out a rogue or hunter was skipping a MD or ToT. I will need the hit from the legguards because I plan on sticking with the sentinel's cloak and getting the heroic bile encrusted so I would be sitting down at like 153 hit in my final gear plan. As far as expertise as long as I don't switch to a heroic troggbane, the free expertise I get for a mace plus the ginning skull great boots and the glyph hit the number we are looking for. I mainly was just looking for some additional validation on these, however I am holding out some hop that we can get some insight from another prot pally in a top guild to see if they are doing things the same way he does.
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Re: 4pc Tier 10 for a ICC HMs

Postby Barathorn » Mon Jun 07, 2010 1:25 am

exiledknight wrote:I mainly was just looking for some additional validation on these, however I am holding out some hop that we can get some insight from another prot pally in a top guild to see if they are doing things the same way he does.


Asking for advice is commendable but I would offer caution to assuming that being in a top guild gives you the ability to be an expert on gearing, often people are but it doesn't always pan out like that. Only you the experianced tankadin know your requirements and while advice from those who have progressed should always be taken on board, it should also not be followed blindly.

That is why on Maintankadin we encourage people to think for themselves and not blindly follow the pack. Understanding is 50% of the battle.

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Re: 4pc Tier 10 for a ICC HMs

Postby Boyfriend » Mon Jun 07, 2010 1:44 am

It really depends on your situation.

I'm thinking of getting the legs but that's because apart from LK all fights are a joke, where I could care less about survival and the expertise would be nice; and on LK I stopped using 4pc all together since in the last 200 wipes I've not had a death to Shamblers and for the limited times I'm tanking LK I use Shieldwall for SR.

Going threat on LK seems even less important than survival to me though, as there's no time when I'm not just temporarily tanking LK after threat was already well established by my druid co-tank. Unless I start losing aggro in Shamblers to healers threat is a non issue to me.

Apart from LK there's no boss that has high enough physical damage that I'd actually consider 4Pc.
The 4Pc is nice, just between Trinkets/DG/SW there's no boss where I'd find practical use for another cooldown except LK, where I'm not tanking boss so physical damage is not something I worry about.

If I got morrowgar legs, I'd use those over pillars; Shamblers have become such a nonissue that I won't miss the armor but HW misses and HoJ misses stress me out time and time again.
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Re: 4pc Tier 10 for a ICC HMs

Postby Marblehead » Mon Jun 07, 2010 3:18 am

My guild is nowhere near the top and we're currently struggling at LK25 normal. Thus, I don't consider myself qualified to tell you do this or do that. However, I think that I might be of some help.

If I understood correct, your friend basically told you that the T10 legs are better for threat against the Legguards of Lost Hope and that if you want to get the T10 4-piece bonus, you should go for helm/chest/gloves/legs instead of helm/shoulders/chest/gloves. So your dilemma is which pair of shoulders+legs you should get, right?

Luckily, if there are no funky procs involved, gearing comes down to just a set of numbers. So let's have a look.


[Boneguard Commander's Pauldrons]/[Sanctified Lightsworn Legguards]
Vs.
[Sanctified Lightsworn Shoulderguards]/[Legguards of Lost Hope]


Assuming that T10 shoulders are gemmed with a +30 stam gem and that lost hope are gemmed with triple +30 stam gems. Also, taking in mind that you already have 25 expertise and 253 hit rating.

Furthermore, from Theck's 3.3 Stat Threat Analysis we know that:

a) 1 hit rating below the cap is 3.2 TPS
b) 1 hit rating above the cap is 0.9 TPS
c) 1 exp rating below the soft cap is 3.8 TPS
d) 1 exp rating above the soft cap is 1.8 TPS

These numbers should be higher with ICC25 heroic gear and the ICC buff, but it shouldn't make any difference on the calculations except that the result will actually be higher than it looks.

Now, depending on the gemming strategy used for blue/yellow socket items, we have the following:

Double stam gems: 16 def rating Vs. 95 TPS and 16 dodge rating and 8 parry rating
Stam/def gems: 36 def rating Vs. 6 stam and 95 TPS and 16 dodge rating and 8 parry rating
Stam/hit gems: 16 def rating Vs. 6 stam and 31 TPS and 16 dodge rating and 8 parry rating


I don't know about you, but to me the T10 shoulders/Lost Hope combination seems more attractive (remember that the TPS values are actually higher than they look).


On a second thought though, since you're already at 25 expertise, maybe we're being a little unfair. Let's add [Boots of Kingly Upheaval] at the first pair and [Grinning Skull Greatboots] at the second pair. Now let's see the numbers again:

Double stam gems: 64 parry rating Vs. 20 TPS and 64 def rating and 16 dodge rating
Stam/def gems: 64 parry rating Vs. 18 stam and 20 TPS and 44 def rating and 16 dodge rating
Stam/hit gems: 64 parry rating and 76 TPS Vs. 18 stam and 64 def rating and 16 dodge rating

So, this time the first set gets ahead in terms of threat only if gemmed for it, but falls a bit behind on everything else.

What I would do is to take the T10 shoulders, keep the lost hope, upgrade the rest T10 and upgrade the boots to the heroic ones. When in need, I would use the pillars to trade some threat for EH.


Anyway, at the end of the day, the decision is yours to make :)
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Re: 4pc Tier 10 for a ICC HMs

Postby theckhd » Mon Jun 07, 2010 2:59 pm

exiledknight wrote:he also reccomended switching to reckoning being a MT since its almost never you use Dsac

This is terrible advice, as well as a pet peeve of mine. The fact that he's recommending dropping Dsac because "it's not a MT ability" would be enough for me to ignore any other advice he gives you in the future. It means he completely misunderstands both how the ability works and how strong it is in progression situations.

Dsac has gotten me more progression kills than any other ability in my arsenal. I pop it almost every fight. Some fights I coordinate it with the other paladins to cover predictable damage spikes, others I use it to ease pressure on the healers whenever things look dicey. Either way, it is an incredibly powerful raid-wide cooldown that can often make the difference between success and failure.

If the ability read "Reduces damage taken by all members of the raid by 20% for 6 seconds," would you take it? Because that's what it does with an appropriate /cancelaura macro.
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Re: 4pc Tier 10 for a ICC HMs

Postby exiledknight » Mon Jun 07, 2010 5:06 pm

All of this is the same reasons I gave him as to why I feel he was wrong, and the responses were typically, I am a top 20 guild yours in a top 250 so I clearly know better. Outside of the arrogance he displayed and no real reason as to state WHY these things were what they were, I felt compelled to come to the community and ask, I have toyed around with reckoning and it seems to be a boost, but as a previous poster noted the threat boost I saw was prob more the result of rogues/hunters meterwhoring with the new buff or just spacing out. The 4pc is pretty much my last priority and for this weeks attempts I have not been using the 4 pc that I do have via 264, and in tanking the horrors saw no real issue with it. Maybe if I was tanking the LK yeah but not for what I am doing in the fight. Thanks for the posts, this was mainly to check to see if somewhere I had missed something changing etc, because I had been really buys with work lately and had not been able to keep up with forums here.
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Re: 4pc Tier 10 for a ICC HMs

Postby Wrathy » Mon Jun 07, 2010 11:08 pm

theckhd wrote:Dsac has gotten me more progression kills than any other ability in my arsenal. I pop it almost every fight.


I am going to have to agree with theck on this one. While i am not in a top 50 guild, i'm not that far behind, and I use dsac every night, on almost every fight. It is a very powerful cool down and should never be underestimated by a raiding paladin.
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Re: 4pc Tier 10 for a ICC HMs

Postby Levantine » Mon Jun 07, 2010 11:15 pm

Hell I'm a horrible Paladin and I still remember to use it whenever I decide to tank a heroic instead of heal it. *I'M LOOKING AT YOU BLACK KNIGHT PHASE THREE SINCE THE ENTIRITY OF BLOODLUST THAT ISN'T ME IS RETARDED*
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Re: 4pc Tier 10 for a ICC HMs

Postby theckhd » Tue Jun 08, 2010 6:13 am

Levantine wrote:Hell I'm a horrible Paladin and I still remember to use it whenever I decide to tank a heroic instead of heal it.

The ironic part is that I spec out of DS/DG for heroics and pick up Reckoning instead. Or at least, I did before I had to change my secondary spec from a "heroic loldps" spec with Reckoning to a "heroic LK10" spec.
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Re: 4pc Tier 10 for a ICC HMs

Postby yappo » Tue Jun 08, 2010 6:43 am

theckhd wrote:The ironic part is that I spec out of DS/DG for heroics and pick up Reckoning instead. Or at least, I did before I had to change my secondary spec from a "heroic loldps" spec with Reckoning to a "heroic LK10" spec.


Same here, apart from the heroic LK part. I'll never see LK to begin with, much less on heroic mode :D

0/54/17 as well. I can't be arsed to time my pulling of the next pack. 2/2 SA is faster as I prefer not to involve my brain in overgeared content.
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