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Gearguide overgeared content (WIP)

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Re: Gearguide overgeared content (WIP)

Postby Meloree » Sat Jun 19, 2010 11:21 pm

Put it this way: I'm fourth on heroic BQL (no bites), at 7400 dps.
The three parses above me all had bites.

I feel like that fourth is a moral first place.
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Re: Gearguide overgeared content (WIP)

Postby inthedrops » Sun Jun 20, 2010 5:18 am

Meloree wrote:Put it this way: I'm fourth on heroic BQL (no bites), at 7400 dps.
The three parses above me all had bites.

I feel like that fourth is a moral first place.


Agreed. I always look for your name in any parse any saw you there on 25.
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Re: Gearguide overgeared content (WIP)

Postby yappo » Mon Jun 21, 2010 5:29 am

First full edit complete. Now for reader input :D
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Re: Gearguide overgeared content (WIP)

Postby inthedrops » Mon Jun 21, 2010 7:32 am

Nice edits, I hope this thread goes far! So I'd like to offer some feedback.

I liked how you focused on easy to get items. I think that's the best part about the list. But it feels a bit "one sided", perhaps based around your own personal gear and choices.

One thought perhaps, is looking at each slot from each type of gearing perspective and giving a few choices. For example, if you thought of each slot as being either (A) Tank Gear, (B) PvP Gear, or (C) Ret Gear then you could do something like:

Easy to get Helms:
T: [Badge Helm of Uber Tankness]
P: [Badge PvP Helm of Crazy Resilence]
R: [Crafted Helm of Face Smashing]

The BIGGEST challenge in this gearing is remaining uncrittable (which is a good goal to have). So if someone is looking at their gear and feels their current helm is weak, they could look at their current uncrittable status and decide whether they can go full blown Ret gear for a replacement or if they need to stick to something with defence or resilience.

I like that the list focuses on easy to get stuff. This way people could use this list to supplement their existing gear with "Easy to get" pieces that would replace their current pieces that are weak for dps.

Hope this helps.
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Re: Gearguide overgeared content (WIP)

Postby Meloree » Mon Jun 21, 2010 9:49 am

Since we're really going there, I learned how to use chardev. This set is what I've been using in H-ICC25.

I tend to prioritize ret pieces with crit/expertise, and take prot pieces with hit where I can. On the other hand, there's a new buff this week, so I'm going to spend a couple of hours to tune it up a bit more aggressively.
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Re: Gearguide overgeared content (WIP)

Postby econ21 » Mon Jun 21, 2010 10:43 am

Nice work, Yappo!

A few comments:

You might want to link to Theckhd's analysis of threat values per stat as a guide to gear choice. But I confess I am a little vague on whether the translation from tps to dps is uniform or better for certain sets. I am going to assume it is uniform unless told otherwise.

If we take Theck's tps values, then I think the BV metagem is much better than the offensive ones. Say we have 2000 BV, then 5% extra is around 70+ tps whereas 44 AP is less than 40.

One point to bear in mind is that more frost/cash constrained players will not want to get a second cat of top level tank pieces (cat, pillars, kingly boots) just to gem and enchant for dps. So for them, they might prefer to use second best tank pieces (e.g. spare t10 stuff) for that purpose (or ret or pvp gear). Sometimes the top tier stuff is so good (cloak, chest imo) that they will equip them anyway.

A minor niggle - when you say get hit capped, then stat for strength, you could say get soft expertise AND hit capped, then stat for strentgh as expertise is our best threat stat according to Theck until soft capped.

Also, I would tend to use this set for heroic trash, in which case, I would use the BV libram so I can benefit with SoC, not the SoV/strength one.

I am currently running with T9 helm and legs for BV but will try T10 when I get them; but T9 might be an "entry level" item to list as most of us should have triumph to spare (T10 stuff might be more scarce, given that we usually spend our frosties on everything but T10 first).
Last edited by econ21 on Tue Jun 22, 2010 4:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Gearguide overgeared content (WIP)

Postby inthedrops » Mon Jun 21, 2010 11:42 am

econ21 wrote:If we take Theck's tps values, then I think the BV metagem is much better than the offensive ones. Say we have 2000 BV, then 5% extra is around 700+ tps whereas 44 AP is less than 400.


I think the AP meta is crap. It's the crit one that I'm personally interested in. Theck's graphs seem to support that Crit > BV.

Here's a Festergut log: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/kjly ... 852&e=3017

I had BV meta. If using Crit meta...

823,285 of my damage were from crits. 3% more would be 847,983 for an increase of 24,698 damage (not including the extra crit from the meta). Total damage done was 2,037,361. This is an increase in damage of 1.16% to get 2,062,059.

The fight lasted 165 seconds (Note: I don't know how wol calculates dps or edps so using rough math)

With BV meta:
2,037,361 / 165 = 12347 dps

With BV meta + Crit meta (which is impossible obviously, and again ignoring the extra crit):
2,062,059 / 165 = 12497 dps

I know this math is a little wrong, as the source numbers included the BV meta and I don't know how to subtract that out ahead of time. But I doubt it would be all that off. Unless the BV meta is adding more than ~150 dps, which I SERIOUSLY doubt, then the crit meta seems like the higher DPS choice when using this example.

If you consider BV with meta to be about 2250:
* ShoR total hit was damage: 255094
* ShoR total crit was damage: 14657.5
(12.5% of total damage done)

Would the loss of 112 BV by the meta result in 24,698 less total ShoR damage? (~9% less damage from ShoR)

Side Note: I think the TAiaJ trinket accounted for about 4.9% of the damage in that log above which makes me quite satisfied with the trinket.

econ21 wrote:Also, I would tend to use this set for heroic trash, in which case, I would use the BV libram so I can benefit with SoC, not the SoV/strength one.


I think just adding a foot-note that says what's done differently on single target vs. AoE fights should be sufficient.
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Re: Gearguide overgeared content (WIP)

Postby Meloree » Mon Jun 21, 2010 11:48 am

Do note: The BV meta has 21 defense on it, which may or may not allow additional ret gear to be worn. It is a viable tuning option in a set which is guaranteed to struggle for uncrittable.
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Re: Gearguide overgeared content (WIP)

Postby Flex » Mon Jun 21, 2010 1:29 pm

inthedrops wrote:I had BV meta. If using Crit meta...

823,285 of my damage were from crits. 3% more would be 847,983 for an increase of 24,698 damage (not including the extra crit from the meta). Total damage done was 2,037,361. This is an increase in damage of 1.16% to get 2,062,059.


I believe you have the math wrong for the crit damage gems.

823,285 damage from criticals so 411,642.5 normal damage and 411,642.5 bonus crit damage. What the talents that increase crit damage and the gem do is modify the bonus damage. So you'll have 411,642.5 normal damage and 423,991.775 crit damage for 835,634.275 total damage done a much more modest increase of 12,349.275 damage.

I may be totally wrong on that though.
We live in a society where people born on third base constantly try to steal second, yet we expect people born with two strikes against them to hit a homerun on the first pitch.
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Re: Gearguide overgeared content (WIP)

Postby inthedrops » Mon Jun 21, 2010 2:45 pm

Oh I see, totally cut in half :( Well I don't know what's right either. I hopefully asked for it in my post :) Perhaps I got too off topic though.

Regarding BV meta's and what not, I think the message we're trying to send is to not be afraid to mix/match tank enchants with ret gear or ret enchants with tank gear.
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Re: Gearguide overgeared content (WIP)

Postby econ21 » Mon Jun 21, 2010 6:33 pm

Minor point on the shoulders - the titan forged ones from Wintergrasp are worth a mention - they are the same ilevel as the relentless ones, but probably much easier to get for most people.

On the belt - if people are not willing to regem their Verdigris for strength or buy a second one, then the relentless belt will give more dps.
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Re: Gearguide overgeared content (WIP)

Postby yappo » Tue Jun 22, 2010 1:29 pm

You're not forgotten. I'll add in edits reflecting your suggestions.

Before adding pieces I'm trying to verify that the resulting set is good enough for trash in ICC 10 normal. Apart from rather angry reactions from puggers it works perfectly well. In fact, my mitigation (or EH) standard tanking set leaves me manastarved as we paladins are no longer the AoE monsters that we used to be. Ie, I'm losing aggro to my cotank.

While people give me a scared stare when I pop my own shits and giggles set, in reality I get a comfortable level of perfectly maintainable damage-intake in order to keep me full on mana. That I produce stupid numbers of damage (compared to my average ilevel) goes without saying. 8k sustained up to Marrowgar (the ilevel 232 weapon certainly doesn't help).

In my own set, where I destroy tanking gear that I have in doubles (264 T10 legs for example), I only have a total of 4 pieces "properly" gemmed and chanted (this tank picks up socketbonuses for the simple reason I don't get to tank anything that would kill me). Three pieces of PvP gear would allow me to drop below 500 defence. I'm at 511 or something, and 6% reduced crit-chance is way more than needed.

Hence I'll state that staying uncrittable is not a problem. Both the PvP wrists and shoulders come with a good amount of strength, which is why I believe they're "BiS" for any tank unable to get truly amazing pieces.
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Re: Gearguide overgeared content (WIP)

Postby econ21 » Fri Jun 25, 2010 4:10 am

I got the 251 T10 legs last night, but had a crisis of faith and just could not enhance it for dps. I got it to replace my T9 legs for pvp/dps tanking (I have the pillars for raiding). But that +9 stamina socket bonus and blue gem slot called out to me. I'd be forgoing almost 1.5k self-buffed hp and bringing me close to 35k HP if I use strength gems and icescale armour. I think I will probably gem and enchant it for tanking, but use it in my Wintergrasp and threat gear sets for the expertise. (I'm tempted to swith the SoV glyph for the AS one, for PvP fun.) PVP needs a balance of survival and dps; while I could more confidently use the T10 legs for raid trash if enchanced for tanking.

On the plus side, I have noticed a difference in both PvP and heroics from upgrading Nighttime to the Battered hilt sword.

T10 helm next - want to try out that T10 bonus.
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Re: Gearguide overgeared content (WIP)

Postby yappo » Fri Jun 25, 2010 4:30 am

econ21 wrote:I got the 251 T10 legs last night, but had a crisis of faith and just could not enhance it for dps. I got it to replace my T9 legs for pvp/dps tanking (I have the pillars for raiding). But that +9 stamina socket bonus and blue gem slot called out to me. I'd be forgoing almost 1.5k self-buffed hp and bringing me close to 35k HP


But 35k hp UB IS where you'll end up if you build a shits and giggles set that still "formally" fills the reqs for being a tank set. Now convince me you need more than 35k hp UB with a full 25% automatically added to it the moment you enter ICC, BEFORE you sanc. I'm not tanking Festergut in it, I'm berserking through trash.

In reality I gem 'threat'/15 stamina pretty much all over the board on my 'dps' gear. That means hit/15 stam or str/15 stam, but then I'm so set in my ways of optimizing my tanking points.

Destroying the T10 (251) helmet was a real eyeopener (yes, I had 95 emblems lying around to shop a second one). Merely gemming and chanting for threat added a big chunk of dps. The legs 'have' to be handled the same way, because the dps-chant is simply too good to forego.

Anyway, did I say you should forego your 9-stamina bonus? :D

Edit: Adding armoury-link: http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet ... r&cn=Kakad

The link above may or may not show my main tank in his HULK SMASH gear. There are slots where I'm pitifully undergeared, but drops have to occur with proper dps backing away from them in order for me to have any better. The main reason for the link is not to show how über I am, because I'm not, but to show how to balance around the 35k hp UB where I personally feel comfortable.
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Re: Gearguide overgeared content (WIP)

Postby econ21 » Fri Jun 25, 2010 5:17 am

Yes, objectively 35k HP is enough for ICC trash and heroics. It's just the psychology - mine and the groups. (Plus I want to use the legs for fun in Wintergrasp, as PvP gear lacks expertise.)

yappo wrote:The legs 'have' to be handled the same way, because the dps-chant is simply too good to forego.


It's interesting that you have gemmed the legs for stamina (ish) but used the dps enchant. I've tended to slot pure strength for any "dps tank" pieces, but I acquired that mentality when enhancing my PvP gear where the slot bonuses seem weak. For PvE gear, I will think more about slot bonuses now.

But I'm not so sure about the dps leg enchant. From Theck's work, I think approximately 1Str=3AP and 1CS=1Ag for threat. So comparing the tank and dps leg enchant we are comparing the equivalent of 25 strength with 55 stamina (the CS and the Ag side benefits cancel out). The trade off does not look "simply too good" compared to my benchmark of gemming 20 strength rather 30 stamina. I guess I am thinking of something along the lines of Digren's gem guide: we are trading off stamina with dps, which are the most efficient trades?
Last edited by econ21 on Fri Jun 25, 2010 9:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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