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According to rawr, the black heart > key?

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According to rawr, the black heart > key?

Postby Uprisen » Thu Jun 03, 2010 9:42 am

I usually just copy the tanks from the bigger raiding guilds and stack stam, which makes sense because we're getting extra health from the icc buff. But when I took a look at rawr after reading about it on the forums, it looks like the armor trinkets are performing a lot better. Did i miss a setting somewhere? Or should i start regretting the fact that I DE'd my black heart :shock:

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Last edited by Uprisen on Thu Jun 03, 2010 9:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: According to rawr, the black heart > key?

Postby bldavis » Thu Jun 03, 2010 9:47 am

:?:

Theck?

Wrathy?

Dirgen?

SOMEBODY!!!!!
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Brekkie:Tanks are like shitty DPS. And healers are like REALLY distracted DPS
Amirya:Why yes, your penis is longer than his because you hit 30k dps in the first 10 seconds. But guess what? That raid boss has a dick bigger than your ego.
Flex:I don't make mistakes. I execute carefully planned strategic group wipes.
Levie:(in /g) It's weird, I have a collar and I dont know where I got it from, Worgen are kinky!
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Re: According to rawr, the black heart > key?

Postby theckhd » Thu Jun 03, 2010 10:15 am

Unless you understand what Rawr's "Survival" and "Mitigation" formulas are calculating and what they mean, how can you draw the conclusion that any given item is better than another?

Written another way, having the highest total score in Rawr does not make an item BiS.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
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Re: According to rawr, the black heart > key?

Postby theckhd » Thu Jun 03, 2010 10:49 am

Also, as a window into what Rawr is doing:

Note that the Key and the Fang have identical "Survival" scores. They have exactly the same stamina bonuses, but very different procs. So it's a good bet that the Survival score doesn't account for those procs at all, meaning that we can estimate how many "Survival points" it's attributing to each point of stamina:

14510.66 / 228 = 63.64

Note that this agreees with the Brewfest trinkets too (170 stam gives almost exactly 10.79k points).

Now let's see if that matches The Black Heart:

126 * 63.64 = 8019

Too low, so apparently the Heart's 14k score is including the armor proc somehow.

What about the "Mitigation" score? The Organ is a static armor bonus and provides no other mitigation, so let's assume that we can use the Organ to figure out the mitigation score of armor:

7396.66 / 1890 =3.914

Let's see if that matches the Glyph:
1792 * 3.914 = 7014

Pretty close, so we can assume that the "Mitigation" score of each of these items is just based on armor. Given that factor, the Black Heart's Mitigation score assumes a static amount of armor equal to:
4503 / 3.914 = 1151 armor

That's a little lower than the 1568 average you'd get by naively using uptime, my guess is that they've used a slightly more complicated weighted average that uses the actual mitigation formula.

However, it's pretty clear from the discrepancy in Survival points that the proc is somehow factored into the Survival rating. We could make guesses as to how they do the math, or look at the code, but it's not necessary to address the point at hand.

The point is that you can't just take these "scores" at face value, and sum them to determine what's "best." Obviously armor is factored into both survival and mitigation. However,
  1. Without knowing the details of the algorithm, we don't know whether they're double-dipping (leading armor to give you Survival and Mitigation points, artificially inflating its worth).
  2. We don't know if the trinkets are being modeled properly (note that neither stam trinket has any mitigation value, even though both have mitigation on-use abilities).
  3. Worse yet, we don't know what criterion they're using to come up with the different scores. Presumably "Survival" has an EH-like algorithm and "Mitigation" is based on damage reduction. But that still leaves loads of questions:
    • Is it considering purely physical mitigation?
    • If not, how is magic damage incorporated? And how much of each are we talking about?
    • Is it considering total mitigation across an entire fight (arguably a useless metric at this point in time), or for some sort of burst scenario? If so, what type, which boss, what ability, etc.?

That said, armor trinkets are good in ICC, and many of us use dual-armor trinkets for some fights (though in my case, I'd use Organ/Glyph over Heart). However, we also use Stam/Armor or Stam/Stam for other fights.

I think my "default" set is Organ/Key, but I'll swap to Organ/Glyph or Fang/Key for certain fights.
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Re: According to rawr, the black heart > key?

Postby bldavis » Thu Jun 03, 2010 11:52 am

ty theck, i was however mostly being a smartass. :twisted: (and yes i know this is the wrong place...)

:wink: Please don't be a smartass here, you know the score. Bara.
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Brekkie:Tanks are like shitty DPS. And healers are like REALLY distracted DPS
Amirya:Why yes, your penis is longer than his because you hit 30k dps in the first 10 seconds. But guess what? That raid boss has a dick bigger than your ego.
Flex:I don't make mistakes. I execute carefully planned strategic group wipes.
Levie:(in /g) It's weird, I have a collar and I dont know where I got it from, Worgen are kinky!
Levie:Drunk Lev goes and does what he pleases just to annoy sober Lev.
Sagara:You see, you need to *spread* the bun before you insert the hot dog.
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Re: According to rawr, the black heart > key?

Postby tlitp » Thu Jun 03, 2010 11:54 am

theckhd wrote:
theckhd wrote:Unless you understand what Rawr's "Survival" and "Mitigation" formulas are calculating and what they mean, how can you draw the conclusion that any given item is better than another?

  1. Without knowing the details of the algorithm, we don't know whether they're double-dipping (leading armor to give you Survival and Mitigation points, artificially inflating its worth).
  2. We don't know if the trinkets are being modeled properly (note that neither stam trinket has any mitigation value, even though both have mitigation on-use abilities).
  3. Worse yet, we don't know what criterion they're using to come up with the different scores. Presumably "Survival" has an EH-like algorithm and "Mitigation" is based on damage reduction. But that still leaves loads of questions:
    • Is it considering purely physical mitigation?
    • If not, how is magic damage incorporated? And how much of each are we talking about?
    • Is it considering total mitigation across an entire fight (arguably a useless metric at this point in time), or for some sort of burst scenario? If so, what type, which boss, what ability, etc.?

OK, let's demystify Theck's perspective (usually it's the other way around, but we can make an exception :P) :

  1. trinkets are modeled in Rawr more or less correctly; the program is looking for dynamic effects (on equip/on use), but the interaction model between various simultaneous effects is... naive
  2. Survival scale is indeed an EH-like metric; again, modeled rather naively : a. it computes various values for various event types, a physical value for physical intake, a magic school value for a certain magic school intake; b. all cooldowns, player/raid, are ignored; c. all healing events are ignored
  3. Mitigation scale is indeed a TTL-like metric; it takes into consideration average damage reduction, based upon armor/avoidance/resistance
  4. Rawr's front-end (the program's interface) only takes care of the basic inputs : (average, physical-only) base intake, base swing timer; one cannot configure (from the said front-end) burst windows based on a TEH-like metric
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