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Confusion with Gemming/Caps

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Confusion with Gemming/Caps

Postby Vhing » Mon May 31, 2010 4:34 pm

I am an avid reader of these forums and I am finding what seems to be conflicting information from posters that I have always found to be reliable.

My main confusion is about Def "caps" and Hit "caps". Some sources seem to be saying that Def over 540 (and as low as 537 with PvP shoulder enchant) is wasted, but others seem to be saying that Def over 540 is still desireable. I am looking for a definitive answer to this.

If Def over 540 is "wasted" and I am well over 540 Def, but well under Hit "cap" should I switch STM/DEF gems (where the socket bonus is worth having) to STM/HIT gems?

As I am also well over the 102.4% avodance, should I switch STM/AGI gems (where the socket bonus is worth having) to STM/STR (up to 2,000 STR) gems?

Thanks,
Vhing
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Re: Confusion with Gemming/Caps

Postby Koatanga » Mon May 31, 2010 5:52 pm

Depending on the content you are tanking, stat importance varies.

For heroics, naxx, and ulduar, avoidance is good. 102.4 is desirable, def over cap is fine.

For ToC, avoidance starts to wane, and Effective Health begins to be better.

For ICC, you want effective health. Stack Stam and armour at every opportunity. 1 stam is worth around 10-12 armour (buff increases stam but not armour, so I value stam at 12 armour). Def over 102.4 is potentially lost stam, so you would lose the extra def and get more stam. Avoidance is still fine, but nowhere near as important as health and armour.

Hit is a threat stat. If you need more threat, worry about hit. If not, don't worry about hit.
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Re: Confusion with Gemming/Caps

Postby lythac » Mon May 31, 2010 6:23 pm

Avoidance from def once past crit cap (536 with PvP shoulder enchant) is not wasted as it still gives you avoidance. Def past 536 is still good, but it is always a matter of what you can have in its place. For most gear choices you don't have an option as you take the piece with highest EH but you do for gems and enchants, so -

Def from gear past 536 is not wasted.
Def from gems past 536 is also not wasted, but you should be taking sta instead.
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Re: Confusion with Gemming/Caps

Postby Mert » Tue Jun 01, 2010 4:22 am

I'd personally advise keeping Defense Skill at or above 540 irrespective of the PvP enchant simply because while it's true that the 15 Resilliance reduces your chance to be Crit sufficiently to drop to 536, Ardent Defender will give its maximum return based on being at 540 or greater.
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Re: Confusion with Gemming/Caps

Postby theckhd » Tue Jun 01, 2010 5:54 am

Koatanga wrote:For ICC, you want effective health. Stack Stam and armour at every opportunity. 1 stam is worth around 10-12 armour (buff increases stam but not armour, so I value stam at 12 armour).


The buff has absolutely no effect on the relative worth of stam and armor. I'd still use the 10:1 rule of thumb.
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Re: Confusion with Gemming/Caps

Postby Mert » Tue Jun 01, 2010 8:49 am

Armor doesn't scale directly with the buff but because of the fact that Armor's value is calculated by your maximum health its effectiveness does indeed scale very well.

In fact I ran a few numbers through at various levels of the buff in both an Armor and Stam set to test the assertion there was no "tripping point" after which it became better to gear Stam (as it'd scale directly with the buff).

A few things to note though: firstly, I forgot about the 10-man bracers with the Bonus Armor in my gearset because I'm stupid. Secondly, the two sets are not equal in EH to begin with, so while the Armor set does appear to get better than the Stam set as the buff increases, it's not a completely fair test. Finally, the key point here isn't that it's inherently better to gear one way or the other but simply to show that Armor doesn't lose value (or, rather, the ratio doesn't change as Theck mentioned) as the buff increases.


Armor gearset:
Link: http://chardev.org/?profile=415350
Armor: 41,964
Mitigation (level 83): 71.61%

Stamina gearset:
Link: http://chardev.org/?profile=415355
Armor: 31,630
Mitigation (level 83): 65.53%

Health for both sets at various levels of the ICC buff:

Code: Select all
Buff Level    Armor Set HP        Stam Set HP
5%            56368               65177
10%           59052               68281
15%           61736               71385
20%           64420               74488
25%           67105               77592
30%           69789               80696


Effective Health at various levels of the ICC buff:

Code: Select all
Buff Level    Armor Set EH        Stam Set EH        Difference
5%            198548.78           189083.26           9465.52
10%           208002.82           198088.19           9914.63
15%           217456.85           207093.12          10363.73
20%           226910.88           216095.16          10815.72
25%           236368.44           225100.09          11268.35
30%           245822.47           234105.02          11717.45
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Re: Confusion with Gemming/Caps

Postby svedka » Tue Jun 01, 2010 10:53 am

Mert wrote:
Stamina gearset:
Link: http://chardev.org/?profile=415355
Armor: 31,630
Mitigation (level 83): 65.53%


Missing Leg enchant.
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Re: Confusion with Gemming/Caps

Postby theckhd » Tue Jun 01, 2010 1:27 pm

Mert, you're correct that the increase that you see in the "difference" column is just the scaling of the 0% EH difference of the two sets. Just to check, 11717/9465 = 1.2379, which is exactly the ratio one would expect: 1.3/1.05=1.2380.

You can also show it analytically.
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Re: Confusion with Gemming/Caps

Postby Mert » Tue Jun 01, 2010 4:09 pm

svedka wrote:Missing Leg enchant.


Haha, I'm so pro.

And yeah, when I originally saw the data I made the mistake of thinking that Armor actually increased in value compared to an equivalent iLevel Stam set but then, on reflection, realised that it's actually no better or worse at 30% than 5%. Hadn't seen your analytical post before so thanks for the link :)

It all started just because a former guildie was asking me about this supposed "tripping point" where it'd be more EH to go for max stam at the expense of Armor. I think he thought that the mitigation percentage was based on incoming damage size rather than his max health pool though, which I guess isn't exactly an unexpected assumption if you didn't already know how it worked.
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