When is it advisable to wear avoidance trinkets?

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When is it advisable to wear avoidance trinkets?

Postby Valinyr » Thu May 20, 2010 10:06 am

As the title says, I'd like some input as to when it is preferable to wear double avoidance in a fight (particularly in ICC).

Personally I've always thought that double stamina or double armor is the way to go (or sometimes a combination of the two) for every fight in ICC. However, the mechanics of Heroic Saurfang have let me to believe that wearing double avoidance there would be a better option. Intuitive, it still feels wrong for me but maybe this is more of a prejudice against avoidance than actual theorycraft. So, anyone care to discuss? Thanks!
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Re: When is it advisable to wear avoidance trinkets?

Postby pfunkmort » Thu May 20, 2010 8:03 pm

the only reason to max avoidance specifically on saurfang (vs other bosses) is to minimize the amount of healing and blood power he gets from hitting you while you're affected by rune of blood. If you're two tanking the fight (you should be) most of the help you're going to get on that is from having your tanks be responsive and very fast at taunting off each other when they get rune of blood (he should at worst get one hit off between the time that he casts a rune of blood on a tank, and when he gets taunted off {and upping your avoidance by 6% or something, at the expense of EH is doable, but not necessary by any means). If you're getting caught by surprise by a rune of blood showing up on your other tank, and are late on taunts...watch your own rune of blood debuff. it has a duration. when it reaches 0, it falls off, and assuming he's not in the process of casting something else, Saurfang will almost immediately cast rune of blood on the other tank. Watch for your debuff to fall off (or keep track of it's duration) and specifically watch for your other tank to get the debuff as yours falls off. you don't have to sit there and stare at his frame all fight, just know when it's coming.

on our usual attempts, we end up with like 5 hits per tank over the course of the fight, while we have rune of blood up. so picture your added chance to not get hit in 5 hits, with an additional...what? 6-10% avoidance?

other than that, the only thing avoidance gives you on saurfang is survivability like it does in other fights...so, if your conclusion about icc tanking is that double avoidance trinkets are fail...then it's the same thing on saurfang. if not, go hog wild. (I personally like stam)

[edit] - OH, and rereading you specifically said HEROIC...so...YES, he regains a lot of health and also a lot of blood power every time he hits the tank with rune of blood - however, he also hits like a truck when he gets up there on blood power...When we were going through it on progression, half of our wipes were because we were only using one holy paladin and we didn't have enough dps on saurfang to get there in 5 marks...and the other half were because a tank would go down getting rocked by DBS at 70-90% BP. Just another nay saying from the dual stam camp.
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Re: When is it advisable to wear avoidance trinkets?

Postby Arjuna » Fri May 21, 2010 12:10 am

I thought that Saurfang's mechanic didn't rely on him actually hitting...
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Re: When is it advisable to wear avoidance trinkets?

Postby bashef » Fri May 21, 2010 5:20 am

In all honesty - there is no fight in ICC where I feel that dual (or even single) avoidance trinkets are justified. I could make a case for using dual armour on Saurfang heroic (I do this, in fact) or dual stam if your death was the result of massive burst in a short space of time with no healing (can happen on Saurfang with high BP I guess, LK's soul reaper if you're soaking that, frost breath + melee combo on Sindragosa). Trinket slots are the cheapest place to pick up armour or health - only if you've matched every socket in your gear, enchanted agi/def over health and armour, and are still looking for more avoidance should you consider avoidance trinkets. I'm honestly not sure why you'd do this.
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Re: When is it advisable to wear avoidance trinkets?

Postby Valinyr » Fri May 21, 2010 8:29 am

Yes, as a form of mitigation avoidance is too unreliable for my taste. Especially in ICC. My question was referring to, and I should have been more clear, the Mark of the Fallen Champion ability. Would it be sensible to try to avoid getting hit by Saurfang to avoid, as much as possible ,splash damage to the marks in heroic mode? Making the healers' jobs easier? My personal conclusion on this is that armor trinkets would mitigate this damage a lot more reliably but a few people in my guild (including the RL) insisted that I equip avoidance. Maybe I am missing something. Would it be too much to ask the mighty Theck to comment? =P
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Re: When is it advisable to wear avoidance trinkets?

Postby bldavis » Fri May 21, 2010 8:41 am

Valinyr wrote:Yes, as a form of mitigation avoidance is too unreliable for my taste. Especially in ICC. My question was referring to, and I should have been more clear, the Mark of the Fallen Champion ability. Would it be sensible to try to avoid getting hit by Saurfang to avoid, as much as possible ,splash damage to the marks in heroic mode? Making the healers' jobs easier? My personal conclusion on this is that armor trinkets would mitigate this damage a lot more reliably but a few people in my guild (including the RL) insisted that I equip avoidance. Maybe I am missing something. Would it be too much to ask the mighty Theck to comment? =P


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Re: When is it advisable to wear avoidance trinkets?

Postby repent » Fri May 21, 2010 10:39 am

I may not really understand your question. If your asking the same question that was answered numerous times before "ie does avoidance help limit splash damage to mark targets", the answer was and is still "No". (Tell your raid leader that he is not understanding the tooltip- it is confusing, but has been discussed previously) Damage to Mark targets comes whether the tank dodges or is hit by Saurfang's melee attacks. The previous poster (pfunkmort) answered this and provided the actual dilemna that faces tanks during this fight. "Should I wear dodge because Saurfang heals himself on successful melee strikes when I'm marked by the rune of blood?" His analysis of the question was fine, if tanks are on the ball, no reason to go avoidance.
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Re: When is it advisable to wear avoidance trinkets?

Postby theckhd » Fri May 21, 2010 11:23 am

Valinyr wrote:Yes, as a form of mitigation avoidance is too unreliable for my taste. Especially in ICC. My question was referring to, and I should have been more clear, the Mark of the Fallen Champion ability. Would it be sensible to try to avoid getting hit by Saurfang to avoid, as much as possible ,splash damage to the marks in heroic mode? Making the healers' jobs easier? My personal conclusion on this is that armor trinkets would mitigate this damage a lot more reliably but a few people in my guild (including the RL) insisted that I equip avoidance. Maybe I am missing something.


You're missing two things:
1) As was already mentioned, MotFC damage occurs every time Saurfang attacks, regardless of the outcome. So even if you had 100% avoidance, the Mark targets would still take damage every swing. This was confirmed experimentally (by Khira, I think) during the first month or so in ICC.

2) As far as I'm aware, the Mark damage is independent of the tank's stats. In other words, it's not like Blood Queen Lanathel's "Blood Mirror" ability, so wearing armor won't reduce the damage taken by Mark targets. They'll take the same amount whether you have 0% or 75% mitigation from armor.

So the question of what to wear for Saurfang really comes down to your own survivability. If you run into problems surviving his burst damage at 80+ runic power, use stam or armor trinkets to boost EH. If you're not dying, but want to lighten the load on your healers, then you could wear avoidance or armor trinkets to do so. If you're going to get spam-healed to full every other GCD anyhow, you could equip DPS trinkets to help kill him faster.
Last edited by theckhd on Fri May 21, 2010 12:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: When is it advisable to wear avoidance trinkets?

Postby Valinyr » Fri May 21, 2010 12:04 pm

Oh! Well that really answers my question as far as what trinkets to use for the fight! I really was not aware of the actual mechanic of the ability and I assumed the marks took damage on actual hits. Thanks a lot for the input. But my underlining issue here would be as to the usefulness of avoidance trinkets for the majority of fights. Does it just come down to my healers preference of whether they want to heal a target that takes steady but some what predictable damage or go through lulls while an avoidance streak is going but then have to heal through spikes of damage? (even as I type this I know which one I'd prefer).
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Re: When is it advisable to wear avoidance trinkets?

Postby bldavis » Fri May 21, 2010 1:00 pm

theckhd wrote: .... /snip.......



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Re: When is it advisable to wear avoidance trinkets?

Postby Digren » Fri May 21, 2010 1:03 pm

Note that you can meet the needs of the three conditions by owning stamina, armor, and DPS trinkets.

  1. Need to survive? Stamina and/or armor
  2. Want to lighten healer load? Avoidance and/or armor
  3. Need neither of the above and/or need to uncap DPS? DPS and/or threat
There's not really any situation where avoidance trinkets help but other trinkets wouldn't. Unless your healers are good at canceling spells, I don't know how much benefit avoidance trinkets provide in situation 2 anyway.

There are only two situations where avoidance trinkets are really needed:
  1. A fight where no amount of effective health increases time to live (i.e. early Brutallus). Avoiding the bad death scenario is the only option. Blizzard no longer makes these sorts of fights because they aren't much fun. (Even once it's on farm, you could still die any attempt due to RNG until you have enough EH to outgear it.)
  2. A gimmick fight designed to require avoidance over a certain threshold. Blizzard has not made one of these in recent memory.
Of the above, only the first would mean wearing avoidance trinkets with "progression" gear. Gimmick fights are gimmick fights and should use specialty gimmick gear.
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Re: When is it advisable to wear avoidance trinkets?

Postby Invisusira » Fri May 21, 2010 1:24 pm

Corpse Tongue Coin has a higher iLevel than Scarab. More gearscore points yo.
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Re: When is it advisable to wear avoidance trinkets?

Postby Digren » Fri May 21, 2010 2:08 pm

Invisusira wrote:Corpse Tongue Coin has a higher iLevel than Scarab. More gearscore points yo.

Ok, yeah, I couldn't think of a gimmick fight earlier where avoidance trinkets could help. But... an avoidance trinket would help if it had a higher iLvl than your armor trinket... for Flame Leviathan, one of the few WotLK gimmick fights. But a holy or ret trinket could do the same job.

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Re: When is it advisable to wear avoidance trinkets?

Postby lythac » Fri May 21, 2010 6:01 pm

Digren wrote:A gimmick fight designed to require avoidance over a certain threshold. Blizzard has not made one of these in recent memory.


Add tanking on Anub Heroic. Well wasn't required as Druids and DKs did tank the adds, but 1 avoidance trinket was used in a lot of sets, paired with Lavanthors(sp).
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Re: When is it advisable to wear avoidance trinkets?

Postby JdgDredd » Fri May 21, 2010 7:58 pm

I like it on heroic Blood Queen to lighten both tank healing and let more healing go to the raid and vampires, whom take extra damage.
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