front load aggro

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Re: front load aggro

Postby theckhd » Thu May 20, 2010 6:39 am

Most of this has already been said, I think. But anyway:

1) DPS pulling off of you in 5-mans happens, just taunt. It happens a lot less if you use Seal of Command. I think the utility of SoCom is worth losing a point of Conviction, as it helps on LDW, Loot Ship, Dreamwalker and ICC trash, and makes for 10-minute daily heroic clears. YMMV.

2) Opening sequence: I've never really succeeded at using Exorcism since it gained a cast time, it may just be my latency that prevents me from doing so though. My standard opening is usually:

HoReck
AS
Judge at 10 yards
Avenging Wrath when they enter melee range
ShoR
HotR
Cons
HS
Slip into 969

If it takes the boss long enough to enter range, I'll slip Cons and HS up into those empty GCDs. This is, strictly speaking, less overall threat than a pure 969 would be. What it does is frontload your heavy hitters so that you get a large amount of burst threat in the first couple GCDs. It also gives you the HoReck damage and the 3-second fixate to cover AS, Judgement, and distance closing time.

You should always be getting a Misdirect if one is available. Tricks is optional - I used to get it all the time because my rogues are lazy (you don't have to change your macro if you have it set to the one person who's got 100% attendance). We noticed that I don't need it though, so I've had them switch to using it on each other or on other DPS players to boost raid dps. Since Tricks doesn't stack with AW anyway, I just pop AW earlier on the pull now rather than saving it for after Tricks falls off.

For stationary bosses, like Saurfang, I switch it up a little. Since the goal on Saurfang is not sustained threat, but to build as much threat as you can in 15 seconds or so (before the other tank taunts), I do something like this:

Precast DP, HS, Cons in that order. Cons gets cast with 1 second left on the DXE "encounter start" timer.
Spam HoReck until he activates
ShoR
AWrath+HotR
Judge
Cons
ShoR
HotR
AS
Judge
slip into 969

I don't bother very much with HS on the pull there. I've never mathed out whether it's more total damage than AS or Judgement given his fast swing speed, but it's probably not a significant difference.

3) Tweaking your spec and gear for more threat:
-You're over hit cap and under expertise cap. Swapping your chest/legs for Cataclysmic/Pillars would fix that and give you a chunk of extra armor. For perspective, expertise is an even better threat stat than hit if you're below 26 expertise fully buffed.

-Use the 200 STR libram for more threat, that's a big chunk all by itself at the cost of a little avoidance. You can always swap the dodge libram back in later on once threat is established

-Similarly, you can lead off with a 2.6-speed dps weapon enchanted with Berserking, and swap it out 30+ seconds into the fight. Or just use a slow dps weapon the whole time.

-Drop to 3/5 Divinity to get the last point of Crusade. That's a very large threat increase from just a single point.

-Consider switching the other 3 points from Divinity to Reckoning if you still need more threat. Again, not necessary at all if you're doing everything properly, but it's an option. I still think Raidwall is better than either, personally.

-Change your weapon enchant from Blade Ward to Mongoose (if you're still over hit-cap) or Accuracy (if you're below it, after making the gear swaps I mentioned earlier).
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Re: front load aggro

Postby fuzzygeek » Thu May 20, 2010 10:00 am

Somewhat side-topic: Unless your problem is specifically having things pulled off you within 2-3 GCDs, it's "more effective" to pop wings once you have a 5 stack of Vengeance.

Also, in the field I had mongoose uptimes of sub-20% on bosses, which is dismal enough to make me want something more effective. I've since switched to Dex on my tanking weapons, Accuracy on Last Word, and Zerk on the DBS sword.
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Re: front load aggro

Postby theckhd » Thu May 20, 2010 10:09 am

fuzzygeek wrote:Somewhat side-topic: Unless your problem is specifically having things pulled off you within 2-3 GCDs, it's "more effective" to pop wings once you have a 5 stack of Vengeance.


This is true, but I've found that when someone pulls aggro, it's usually within the first 5-6 seconds. An unlucky (DPS) crit early on, an unlucky parry of ShoR, loss of melee time due to positioning the boss, that sort of thing. If I make it past the 6-second mark, aggro is rarely a problem. Popping wings when you close melee range covers that period while still giving you a good chunk of time with AW active and a 5-stack.
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Re: front load aggro

Postby golfinguy » Thu May 20, 2010 12:25 pm

theckhd wrote:
fuzzygeek wrote:Somewhat side-topic: Unless your problem is specifically having things pulled off you within 2-3 GCDs, it's "more effective" to pop wings once you have a 5 stack of Vengeance.


This is true, but I've found that when someone pulls aggro, it's usually within the first 5-6 seconds. An unlucky (DPS) crit early on, an unlucky parry of ShoR, loss of melee time due to positioning the boss, that sort of thing. If I make it past the 6-second mark, aggro is rarely a problem. Popping wings when you close melee range covers that period while still giving you a good chunk of time with AW active and a 5-stack.



Hmmmm, haste pot for tanks now? :P
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Re: front load aggro

Postby Arjuna » Thu May 20, 2010 1:03 pm

fuzzygeek wrote:Somewhat side-topic: Unless your problem is specifically having things pulled off you within 2-3 GCDs, it's "more effective" to pop wings once you have a 5 stack of Vengeance.

though, as a tank, I find that vengeance is stacked 5 almost instantly...
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Re: front load aggro

Postby svedka » Thu May 20, 2010 3:01 pm

Hand of protection the warrior





But seriously a 20 sec chat asking for MD's, tricks would go a long way.
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Re: front load aggro

Postby pfunkmort » Thu May 20, 2010 7:46 pm

we have a boomkin who likes to be nasty on pulls...prepot, dots, wrath until his trinkets proc, and then starfall and force of nature. boom - if he's a real jerk and starts his rotation when I taunt and before I get the boss, he ramps up to over 30k dps within 5 seconds of the pull (the spikiest of our dps on the pull) before he normalizes to reasonable dps. I've gotten in the habit of minimizing my movement on the pull...it helps a lot. Also it was said above, but assuming you don't have tricks on you, burn AW about 2-3 gcds in. It'll help you A LOT, and assuming you can hold the boss for about 4-5 seconds, it'll stick it to you for most of the rest of the fight. I never used to like AW mid fight because I was always afraid I'd need DP randomly, but after getting that divine sacrifice autocancel macro that theck was nice enough to make, I'll just make sure I have DS up and/or trinkets for an onoz moment, and try to pop wings on CD. Beyond that, it helped me a lot to make a mouseover salv macro for quick salvs from the raid frames during a fight. Definitely easier to do that when someone's creeping up on you on omen than to try to hit your keys harder for that extra threat.
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Re: front load aggro

Postby superworm » Fri May 28, 2010 10:21 am

Good coordination between tanks is quite necessary. The off tank is not your competitor and he should be your partner.

On the other hand, I think currently tankadins do have some problems in initial aggro. If you have problems in beating the dps, try to get MDs/tricks. If you have problems in beating the off-tank, try to communicate with them and figure out what is causing them to pull aggro from you.

For DKs, their highest threat move is rune strike, which almost all the experienced dk tanks will bind to other major skills(as it's an on next auto attack move), which could still go off even after the other tank taunts. One hit without crit will net ~30k threat, which could almost certainly cause problems in earlier fights. I believe warriors have similar problems with their Revenge, though it's more controllable. Try to tell your offtank to watch for these skills and the threat meters after tank switch.

In my experience, currently tankadins do have inferior pull aggro. Like in LK transitions phase, our tankadin is assigned to pull the raging spirit#2 & 4, but he constantly lose his aggro to someone, and I have to taunt back and IT spam to keep everyone alive. This is only limited experience so it may not be universal.
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Re: front load aggro

Postby repent » Fri May 28, 2010 11:41 am

I see alot of people saying HoR then AS, and I'm not really sure where this is coming from. The AS wont create agro until it lands and HoR is off the GCD and should always hit first for damage. I can't recall a time where AS has hit a ranged target prior to the HoR landing. Its more likely people are running in at the time and creating range agro and the HoR is taunting, but the mob is already on you from the run. Realistically your next attack should flow (judgment) immediately on range without GCD issues. (nothings wrong with Exorcism, in theory, its better, its just as soon as I start running in my raid group will attack whether my initial attacks land or not. I just don't have time to cast it once I move into range)
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Re: front load aggro

Postby fuzzygeek » Fri May 28, 2010 1:07 pm

repent wrote:I see alot of people saying HoR then AS, and I'm not really sure where this is coming from.


HoR first negates wonkiness from AS travel time or user error (taking longer to hit HoR than AS does to travel), minimizes accidental proxy aggro or hunters with itchy misdirects. In ideal situations it shouldn't matter. In practice it can.
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