front load aggro

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front load aggro

Postby Protpally » Wed May 19, 2010 4:34 pm

Hello Prot paladins, ... =Dabossman
My prot pally is geared. But I am facing 2 problems :

1) DPS warriors seem to pull threat (in 5 man heroics, not raids)
2) Warriors and DK tanks who are comparatively or slightly less geared (when tanking with me) are pulling threat off me in a few situations. I dont know if they are being asses and taunting, or they have more front load aggro. (eg. if I am tanking Rotface, before the oozes spawn, if the warrior tank is taking a few swings at the boss, I am scared he will pull threat off me.)

The pull : Avenger's shield then hand of reckoning.

My spec is meant for main tanking, so I dont have the talent in ret tree where the judgment jumps to 2 additional targets, (I dont need it), also I chose divinity over divine sacrifice, because it helps the healers to keep me up. And i judge light, thus get the "healing aggro" as well. Usually I am the last man standing in any encounter, huge mitigation and survivability : needed to be the main tank of a progressive raiding guild.

Hit rating is OK, and I have the rotation down to a pat. Know fights, know the movements, nuances, etc.

So is it that, warriors and DK's just generate more threat right off the bat than paladins do?

Please note: talking about 6k gear score high end raiding, please comment if you have experienced that kind of content as a tank.

Thanks in advance.

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Re: front load aggro

Postby Amirya » Wed May 19, 2010 4:56 pm

Protpally wrote:so I dont have the talent in ret tree where the judgment jumps to 2 additional targets

The what?

It's been one of those days at work, but I don't recall any talent like that.

Unless you mean SoCleave?

I don't use SoComm either, and I never have threat issues against warriors or DKs. Never have. Unfortunately, I'm at work so can't see your spec/talents.

I'll comment more once I'm home, but off the bat, why the hell aren't you tanking Rotface oozes? You have better utility to deal with slime pools and rogue oozes. I'm main tank, and I've yet to tank Rotface, I'm always on ooze duty.
Last edited by Amirya on Wed May 19, 2010 5:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: front load aggro

Postby arrigo » Wed May 19, 2010 5:05 pm

Protpally wrote:The pull : Avenger's shield then hand of reckoning.

I'm assuming that your throwing avenger's shield and then using hand of reckoning while it's still in the air? if not this might be the problem I normally reverse the order because hand of reckoning only builds threat if the target is not already focused on you I believe. If your waiting for avenger's shield to hit before using your taunt you could be severely limiting your initial agro.

Also, do you have any hunter's or rogues they should be focusing their threat on you for the first few seconds with TotT and MD becuase it's not wasting any CD's at the beginning of the fight. If all that is in order and your still losing agro, I'd have to say that your off-tanks aren't being responsible and taunting.
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Re: front load aggro

Postby fuzzygeek » Wed May 19, 2010 5:06 pm

I'd HoR before AS, personally. You get damage bonus if the HoR hits first, and travel time on AS might go wonky depending on your latency.

Warriors can get a ridiculous amount of front-load threat with a SSlam crit and S&B propc and crit again. There's really no reason he should be hitting the boss if he's going to be kiting, and if he's pulling threat he's being an idiot. (Personally I kite slimes since we're generally better suited for it than almost all the tanks, especially if shit goes sideways (two ranged taunts comes in handy when people are being idiots with slimes.))

DKs icy touch is an absolutely ricockulous amount of snap threat -- it recently received a huge bonus threat component in 3.3.3, and if they pop it before you have more than a GCD or two on a mob, they'll probably pull the mob off.

Again, you shouldn't have to fight for threat with your offtanks, and you shouldn't be fighting for threat with your offtanks. Tanks who don't understand that have no business tanking, in my opinion.

They removed the "healing aggro" component of JoL quite some time ago -- like, during the tail end of Naxx, IIRC.

A comment on your spec: 0/2 vindication seems like a monster oversight. There's significant discussion about it elsewhere in the forums.
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Re: front load aggro

Postby Melathys » Wed May 19, 2010 8:26 pm

yes. hand of reckoning before shield.

I was having some issues with front loading threat, so i changed from judgement glyph to avenger shield glyph, problem solved. If I remember right, the overall gain/loss over judgement was minimal.
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Re: front load aggro

Postby Steve » Wed May 19, 2010 9:49 pm

Paladin single target threat is not competitive with warriors and death knights. That they are pulling off you is, at least partly, a function of class mechanics.
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Re: front load aggro

Postby Arnock » Wed May 19, 2010 10:26 pm

Reading your post and glancing at your armory there's a couple things I'd recommend.

First of all, if initial aggro is your only concern, take these steps

1. Replace your glyph of judgement with glyph of avenger's shield. I was getting 6-7k crits with this glyph back in naxx gear, not sure what your numbers would look like now, but it certainly would give you a significant boost up front.

2. Change your pulling spells. You should always use HoR before tossing your shield, no real reason not to, and you can eliminate the chance of lag completely invalidating the HoR. If you can, weave exorcism in there as well, so your sequence would look like HoR->Exorcism->AS.

3. Hit the boss hard and fast. You don't need to go into 969 immediately. Hit 'em up quickly with HotR, shield slam, and judgement before falling into your normal rotation. Pre-cast holy shield/consecration before the boss gets to you if the fight allows it.

4. Dont be afraid to ask for tricks/MD. There is no reason hunters shouldn't be casting MD on you. Tricks is better off on a dps, but if initial aggro is still an issue, you should be getting tricks as well.

5. Pop your wings. Chug a red bull if you have to.

If your issue is threat over time, the above doesn't work, or you just want more threat pointers

Drop divinity for divine sac/guardian and another point in crusade. The majority of tank deaths are either caused by undergeared tanks or healers, or heals not coming out fast enough. The size of the heals, generally speaking, aren't as big of an issue unless. Divine Guardian adds a 20% damage reduction to Divine sacrifice, and if you immediately cancel the damage sharing component (through a macro) you get a nice 20% shield wall for 6 seconds.

Switch up your libram with the 245 ret libram. Avoidance isn't the most... attractive stat and 200 strength is nothing to shake a stick at.
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Re: front load aggro

Postby Arjuna » Wed May 19, 2010 11:36 pm

Also you are overcapped in hit and undercapped in expertise, you might have to worry about some early parried/dodged attacks on the boss that the offtank maybe won't have.

You are also missing out on 2% more damage to the boss as you only have 2/3 in crusade.

But also, you could say to your offtank that they should mind their fu**ing threat! It's usually not a dps race anywhere anymore and the insignificant amount of damage they do to the boss at the start is...insignificant. As long as you can stay ahead of your dps on threat it shouldn't be a problem really...
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Re: front load aggro

Postby Meloree » Wed May 19, 2010 11:52 pm

Any time you have the opportunity to actually pull (as opposed to standing start bosses like LDW or Saurfang or Sindragosa), the best routine is to cast exorcism, and then machinegun your HoR/AS buttons (both of them) as fast as you can. You can get all 3 off at basically the same instant, all 3 do damage. Then start machinegunning your judgement button as you run in, so that it casts the instant you're in range (before you're in melee range).

Generally speaking, after all that, it is unlikely that warriors/DKs will pull off you, unless they're explicitly trying to do so (IT spam for DKs, S&B'd SS's for warriors, etc). However, warriors and DKs just do more single-target threat than paladins right now, fact of mechanics.
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Re: front load aggro

Postby yappo » Thu May 20, 2010 4:10 am

Protpally wrote:My spec is meant for main tanking, so I dont have the talent in ret tree where the judgment jumps to 2 additional targets, (I dont need it), also I chose divinity over divine sacrifice, because it helps the healers to keep me up. And i judge light, thus get the "healing aggro" as well. Usually I am the last man standing in any encounter, huge mitigation and survivability : needed to be the main tank of a progressive raiding guild.

See the errors?

Why do you pick something that "helps the healers to keep me up" if you're "usually [...] the last man standing in any encounter"?
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Re: front load aggro

Postby Levantine » Thu May 20, 2010 4:39 am

Whoah.... Paladins have a talent that makes Judgement hit more than one target?

Trolly jokes aside, DG almost definitely does more to keep you alive than Divinity.
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Re: front load aggro

Postby Mozen » Thu May 20, 2010 5:30 am

I agree with many of the above posters. But in general:

1. DPS pulling off you in five-mans: if they're attacking as you reach the mob, just be ready with a Righteous Defense. No big deal about it. Happens all the time.

2. Co-tanks pulling off you: they should watch their own threat. Granted, you should have planned to have all your threat dumps available when tank switches are required, and the current tank should have already stopped all attacks when calling for a tank switch or the agreed-upon threshold has been reached. On the pull, it's even more so their fault

You should only be worried about front load aggro if your DPS are waiting a few seconds before unloading on the boss and they still are at a danger of pulling off you. That is rarely the case.
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Re: front load aggro

Postby eia » Thu May 20, 2010 5:40 am

Protpally wrote:I dont know if they are being asses and taunting

I am using Taunt Tattle to know. Lovely addon imo.
Other than that, I normally only have trouble if hunters are MD:ing to the wrong tank, or if they get some lucky crits off right at the start. Wings and/or asking them to cool it the first couple of seconds generally solves that.
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Re: front load aggro

Postby Jasari » Thu May 20, 2010 5:46 am

I don't think there's anything new else to add.

It seems like a lot of people who have aggro problems are unknowingly doing the 96969 incorrectly (they're doing something like a 96969 *rest* 96969 *rest* 96969), so I'd read back through the dozens of threads about it on this board and make sure that you understand it.
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Re: front load aggro

Postby cerwillis » Thu May 20, 2010 6:31 am

Jasari wrote:I'd read back through the dozens of threads about it on this board and make sure that you understand it.
Your problems are really no different than the guy in blues tanking his first heroic. Know your rotation, knowing your group helps, and if someone gets greedy on trash, just let them tank it. And it doesn't take a 6k GS to know that.
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