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On block or avoidance

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On block or avoidance

Postby yappo » Thu May 06, 2010 5:30 am

Another thread elsewhere got me thinking about our libram options.

As I can see we have three options:
Crapton of threat, ilevel 245.
Solid extra of avoidance, ilevel 245 or 264 if ramping up time is acceptable.
Huge chunk of blockvalue, ilevel 226.

So, what do we want when stuff tries to hurt us?

All damage is magic, well, I guess I could as well pump out as much damage as possible. I assume 9x% uptime on 200 str is more damage than 460 BV.

Then to avoidable and blockable attacks. While I'm pretty sure 200:ish dodge-rating lowers overall damage-intake a LOT more during the course of a fight compared to 460 BV, does it decrease incoming damage IN A WAY BENEFICIAL TO MY HEALERS?

I don't have the numbers, but say the avidance-libram adds another 3%, or so, avoidance. It's pretty nifty. I go from some 42:ish % to 45 given my standard tanking set, inside ICC.

Now, no matter how we turn and bend the numbers, 40%+ of all attempted, blockable, attacks WILL become blocked as long as we're inside ICC. In my case almost 44%. I'm only talking about serious attacks, so an unholy crapton of mobs on the way to Marrowgar eating up my charges doesn't count :D

So, 42% of all incoming crap hits air, 44% could be soaked by 460 more, or at least 360 more if you're using the str-libram, than it currently is, and 18% land in my face. (102.4, not 100, needed)

Or, 45% of all incoming crap hits air, 44% gets soaked, but not as much, and 15% land in my face.

I'm simply disregarding getting to 102.4 in ICC, because I'm asking about comparing 460 BV with 3:ish% avoidance without trying to commit suicide gearwise.

Those 460 less damage taken, 44 or 43% of all incoming avoidable/blockable attacks, compared to 3:ish% full avoidance. What would be preferable to your average raiding healer?
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Re: On block or avoidance

Postby Marblehead » Thu May 06, 2010 8:42 am

Short answer (rough calculations):

[Libram of the Eternal Tower] provides 3% dodge.
[Libram of the Sacred Shield] provides 450 BV.
You have 44% block chance.
Boss hits for x damage.

0.03*x = 0.44*450 <=> x=6600

So, if the boss hits for more than 6600 damage, you'll get more benefit from the dodge libram.
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Re: On block or avoidance

Postby yappo » Fri May 07, 2010 1:28 am

Marblehead wrote:
So, if the boss hits for more than 6600 damage, you'll get more benefit from the dodge libram.


I'm already aware of that :D

I'm not disputing that the avoidance-libram is superior in reducing overall damage, but I'm wondering if it reduces that incoming damage in a way that is preferrable to how the BV one handles it. ICC-raiding being the assumed combat-environment.

Compare with a hypothetical 1000 armour libram, and I'm pretty sure it would have been considered BiS despite reducing less overall damage compared with the dodge-libram.
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Re: On block or avoidance

Postby Apollya » Fri May 07, 2010 1:57 am

Marblehead wrote:Short answer (rough calculations):

[Libram of the Eternal Tower] provides 3% dodge.
[Libram of the Sacred Shield] provides 450 BV.
You have 44% block chance.
Boss hits for x damage.

0.03*x = 0.44*450 <=> x=6600

So, if the boss hits for more than 6600 damage, you'll get more benefit from the dodge libram.


Are you including DR in your calculation of 3% dodge?

I remember reading somewhere on these forums, please correct me if this however is incorrect. That after around 700 dodge rating that DR on dodge seriously kicks in making it almost not worth taking at all. Now in gear alone using Libram of Valiance I run at 658 Dodge rating unbuffed which is around 29%. Due to this I've not even bought the 245 Dodge libram never mind the 264. As Yappa and another said in Dirgen's post I use:

[Libram of the Sacred Shield] - AoE Tanking using SoComm for minor mitigation but mainly extra threat.
[Libram of Valiance] - For normal Tanking using SoV/SoC again minor mitigation but mainly for it's added threat.

And before people jump in with the omg threat is no issue. No it's not an issue, but I'm of the opinion the more threat you can kick out and the faster, then the sooner dps can really open up the nuke without worrying.
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Re: On block or avoidance

Postby Marblehead » Fri May 07, 2010 2:23 am

@yappo

Nowadays, tank healers tend to spam heals and do much overheal just to be sure. The difference between the libram is too small for the healers to notice.


@Apollya

You're not wrong. I just rounded up to 3%. Even if I assumed that it provides 2.5% dodge, the result would be 7920, which doesn't make any difference, since all bosses, in any version of ICC, hit for more than 10k.
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Re: On block or avoidance

Postby yappo » Fri May 07, 2010 4:37 am

Marblehead wrote:@yappo

Nowadays, tank healers tend to spam heals and do much overheal just to be sure. The difference between the libram is too small for the healers to notice.


Well, I agree to a degree, but not fully. After all I could start gemming straight spirit in a few slots with the argument that the difference is too small to notice :D
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Re: On block or avoidance

Postby Barathorn » Fri May 07, 2010 4:46 am

yappo wrote:Another thread elsewhere got me thinking about our libram options. /snip


As I mentioned in the 3.3 Guide Thread, I think the ICC buff has affected judgements on the BV and strength librams as threat is often viewed over avoidance as necessary for a lot of 10 man guilds who have geared DPS now.

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Re: On block or avoidance

Postby yappo » Fri May 07, 2010 5:06 am

Barathorn wrote:
yappo wrote:Another thread elsewhere got me thinking about our libram options. /snip


As I mentioned in the 3.3 Guide Thread, I think the ICC buff has affected judgements on the BV and strength librams as threat is often viewed over avoidance as necessary for a lot of 10 man guilds who have geared DPS now.

Barathorn



Heh, and I really didn't even think of the threat aspect of which libram to pick. That IS, obviously, an important aspect.

My primary question was actually if the BV libram is better for survival (inside ICC only) than the avoidance one, despite the avoidance libram being superior in lowering overall damage-intake.

Basically all advice on maintankadin is based on stamina/armour being better than avoidance, even though the dead tank, at the moment of death, wearing avoidance gear will have taken far less damage than the alive stamina/armour tank.
The above might read strangely, but it all boils down to dead tanks not tanking anything, and it therefore being better to be a mana-sponge and stay alive compared to taking very little damage until the point of sudden death.

Seen in that light the BV libram (considering that it'll be applied for well over 40% of all incoming, mitigable, attacks) doesn't seem AS useless as before. In an attrition scenario, were how healers cope with a string of UNAVOIDED attacks is what we're looking at, those extra 450 damage shaved off per hit might be interesting.

The drawback with a nonavoidance libram is 14% versus 17% hits, which increases the chance of a double hit from 0.14 squared to 0.17 squared.

So, do people die from double or triple pure hits in a row, or do they die from four or five blocks + hits in a row?
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Re: On block or avoidance

Postby Barathorn » Fri May 07, 2010 5:18 am

yappo wrote:
Barathorn wrote:
yappo wrote:Another thread elsewhere got me thinking about our libram options. /snip


As I mentioned in the 3.3 Guide Thread, I think the ICC buff has affected judgements on the BV and strength librams as threat is often viewed over avoidance as necessary for a lot of 10 man guilds who have geared DPS now.

Barathorn



Heh, and I really didn't even think of the threat aspect of which libram to pick. That IS, obviously, an important aspect.

My primary question was actually if the BV libram is better for survival (inside ICC only) than the avoidance one, despite the avoidance libram being superior in lowering overall damage-intake.

Basically all advice on maintankadin is based on stamina/armour being better than avoidance, even though the dead tank, at the moment of death, wearing avoidance gear will have taken far less damage than the alive stamina/armour tank.
The above might read strangely, but it all boils down to dead tanks not tanking anything, and it therefore being better to be a mana-sponge and stay alive compared to taking very little damage until the point of sudden death.

Seen in that light the BV libram (considering that it'll be applied for well over 40% of all incoming, mitigable, attacks) doesn't seem AS useless as before. In an attrition scenario, were how healers cope with a string of UNAVOIDED attacks is what we're looking at, those extra 450 damage shaved off per hit might be interesting.

The drawback with a nonavoidance libram is 14% versus 17% hits, which increases the chance of a double hit from 0.14 squared to 0.17 squared.

So, do people die from double or triple pure hits in a row, or do they die from four or five blocks + hits in a row?


In ICC10 until the last 4 bosses I would suggest that the tanks die simply because dps or healers die. Once you get to a comfortable level, say 50k buffed health, you really have very little to fear from the first 8 bosses other than DPS overaggroing or healers dying.

I cannot remember the last time Barathorn died in a tank death scenario from either a/burst non avoided damage or b/a blocked string of damage.

I personally don't even own the dodge libram, I have used the +strength libram all the way so far but I generally OT where pick up threat is important. I haven't felt the need or requirement to own the dodge libram yet.

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Re: On block or avoidance

Postby yappo » Fri May 07, 2010 6:32 am

Barathorn wrote:In ICC10 until the last 4 bosses I would suggest that the tanks die simply because dps or healers die. Once you get to a comfortable level, say 50k buffed health, you really have very little to fear from the first 8 bosses other than DPS overaggroing or healers dying.

I cannot remember the last time Barathorn died in a tank death scenario from either a/burst non avoided damage or b/a blocked string of damage.

I personally don't even own the dodge libram, I have used the +strength libram all the way so far but I generally OT where pick up threat is important. I haven't felt the need or requirement to own the dodge libram yet.

Barathorn


Well, yes, with a caveat.

Geared the way those of us active on this forum tend to be, no, tank-death is not a major issue. However, we assemble advice for new tanks, or old tanks rerolling as well. Hence you'd have a scenario where a failsafe geared tank starts foraying into ICC, and in that scenario tank-death becomes an issue.

Then we have 25-man, and the afforemented last four bosses. Now, horribly progressed as I am (Fester 10 down twice but only wiping on Rotface), I simply don't know if the second half of ICC offers physical damage based fights or not.

I walk around with the str-libram 100% of the time, for the very reason you mentioned, but I've bought both the avoidance ones as well. After all the 264 looks nice in Dalaran, which is the only use it sees :D

Anyway, we advice tanks to gem stamina, or at least to never slot in pure avoidance gems. In all honesty the advice probably doesn't matter all that much in reality with a 15% everything buffed active. I'd be very surprised if I couldn't remove every gem and enchant from my gear and still tank the first wing on 25-man the way I currently pug it, but it would STILL be bad advice telling me to do so :D

The reason I brought up the librams is that we simply don't have a 1 - 1.5k armour libram. Add one to the game and the entire discussion dies. Armour for progression and strength for farm.
But we don't, and thus the libram slot can't be compared with most other slots. We have a grand total of three bonuses -- dodge, strength or BV.

But to return to your analysis. Healer death is one reason for wipes. Stressed (or outright incompetent) healers die. BV or dodge to lower that stress? :D
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Re: On block or avoidance

Postby Barathorn » Fri May 07, 2010 7:56 am

Ok lets look at it from the angles I am familiar with, starting ICC10 as a failsafe tank and progressing through the first wing, Fester, Rotface, Blood Prince Council and Dreamwalker.

For starting ICC10 as a new failsafe main tank we can probably assume around 38-40k buffed health as a minimum. So in that case additional BV isn't going to keep you alive against a potential string of 3-4 big boss hits but the dodge may so I would suggest until you reach 45k-48k buffed that the dodge libram would cause your healers less stress. After that it comes down to what boss you are facing and if you need to focus on threat or survivability.

For trash, magical boss fights and off tank duties the BV libram or Strength Libram are the one to use.
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