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Glacial Shield Wall vs Heroic Neverending Winter

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Re: Glacial Shield Wall vs Heroic Neverending Winter

Postby Barathorn » Thu May 13, 2010 1:44 am

exiledknight wrote:
Solare wrote:
chinoquezada wrote:GSW is my "dps/off/trash" tanking shield. I have it enchanted with Titanium Plating.
I think most of us are enhancing our shields with titanium plating.


Why would you do this other than for more threat? This is not TBC nor is it heroic anub, if it is your progression shield and you are not using 18 stamina there is something that you are missing on the fundamentals of tanking. Crit immunity>EH>everything else


I disagree.

+18 stamina definately has its place potentially as part of an EH set but with the ICC buff at 15% it is threat and not EH that is now an issue for a lot of ICC10 tanks. Hence Titanium Plating isn't as way out there a choice as some consider it to be.

A good tank adapts to changing factors and external influences as well as just knowing the basics. The choices you must make are very dependant on your progression level as well. It has nothing to do with missing on the fundamentals of tanking whatsoever :wink: . It could be argued that different basics now apply dependant on progression level and raid size for enchanting and gemming.

The OP you quoted also clearly stated that it was his trash shield, obviously not for boss tanking. :wink:

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Re: Glacial Shield Wall vs Heroic Neverending Winter

Postby hoho » Thu May 13, 2010 2:03 am

[quote="Barathorn"]+18 stamina definately has its place potentially as part of an EH set but with the ICC buff at 15% it is threat and not EH that is now an issue for a lot of ICC10 tanks. Hence Titanium Plating isn't as way out there a choice as some consider it to be.[/qoute]Hasn't it been argued to death that both DPS and tank threat increases exactly the same way with the buff? Though I agree, threat will be more of a problem once your raid gears up, just not because the buff :)
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Re: Glacial Shield Wall vs Heroic Neverending Winter

Postby Barathorn » Thu May 13, 2010 3:56 am

hoho wrote:
Barathorn wrote:+18 stamina definately has its place potentially as part of an EH set but with the ICC buff at 15% it is threat and not EH that is now an issue for a lot of ICC10 tanks. Hence Titanium Plating isn't as way out there a choice as some consider it to be.
Hasn't it been argued to death that both DPS and tank threat increases exactly the same way with the buff? Though I agree, threat will be more of a problem once your raid gears up, just not because the buff :)


The way I see it, and this may be heavily biased from a 10 man perspective and I could be completely wrong, so bear that in mind, is that a tank in 10 man normal ICC without a rogue or hunter because of availability issues for team composition, with the 15% buff in effect, will suffer for threat against similar gear levelled DPS - such as Moonkin, Fury Warriors and Warlocks especially on trash.

For boss fights I agree, +18 stam 'should' be the enchant of choice unless you completely overgear the content. However as we have ilevel264 gear for an ilevel251 zone you could argue that as soon as you start getting ilevel264 EoF gear that you are in effect outgearing the content anyway, add to that the buff [currently 15%] and we have very different situation and hence gearing requirement to when the raid was first open. Once you reach a certain level of EH you really don't need more, you need to maximise your damage and threat output. People don't seem to get it isn't 'just' about health.

I personally think that its down to the individual to know what they need to wear/enchant/gear like and that the hard and fast rules of WotLK aren't applicable for ICC especially when two such powerful effects are in place. It isn't just black and white as to gearing in ICC anymore, if you can't see each individual grey area and understand it, then you are hurting the team you tank for. Yes we have BiS lists and we have generally accepted gearing scenarios but I do honestly think a lot of people miss out on so much by simply stating what everyone else says and believing it without questioning. Raiding isn't the same for everyone, people need to accept that I think.

:wink:

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Re: Glacial Shield Wall vs Heroic Neverending Winter

Postby Dantriges » Thu May 13, 2010 6:03 am

Got more problems in caster heavy groups tan in groups with some melee buffs.
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Re: Glacial Shield Wall vs Heroic Neverending Winter

Postby Ardrhyst » Thu May 13, 2010 8:48 am

Barathorn wrote:I personally think that its down to the individual to know what they need to wear/enchant/gear like and that the hard and fast rules of WotLK aren't applicable for ICC especially when two such powerful effects are in place. It isn't just black and white as to gearing in ICC anymore, if you can't see each individual grey area and understand it, then you are hurting the team you tank for. Yes we have BiS lists and we have generally accepted gearing scenarios but I do honestly think a lot of people miss out on so much by simply stating what everyone else says and believing it without questioning. Raiding isn't the same for everyone, people need to accept that I think.

:wink:

Barathorn


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I've been getting a significant amount of ridicule for not going straight stamina in gems and enchants these past couple of weeks, but I just don't feel it's necessary anymore. In my level of content (Normal 25s), I haven't actually felt that I was in danger of death in something like months. At this point, to blindly stack stamina almost seems irresponsible. My offtanks have as much as 5k more HP than I do, but I have the threat to hold my own and the mitigation to take a significantly lower amount of damage. If my healers complained, I'd be open to redesigning my stuff, but I have a close dialogue with them and they're pleased as can be with how we roll.
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Re: Glacial Shield Wall vs Heroic Neverending Winter

Postby yappo » Fri May 14, 2010 4:05 am

hoho wrote:Hasn't it been argued to death that both DPS and tank threat increases exactly the same way with the buff? Though I agree, threat will be more of a problem once your raid gears up, just not because the buff :)


While the threat-problem should be identical, buffed or not, given the same gear (ie tank-set A corresponds threatwise identically with dps-set B no matter if we have a zero% buff or a 30% one), the sheer existence of a buff allows us to progress further than we would have been able to do without the buff.

Maybe I should say progress faster than further, but it amounts to the same thing in the end. Further progression implies more drops, and more drops implies more upgrades. Now, it HAS been verified that threat does not scale with upgrades in parity with dps.

Thus, indirectly, the problem you agreed upon will worsen with the buff.

A direct result of the buff is that the extra hp simply isn't needed with higher and higher buffs. If you downed a boss while living through a virtual heart-attack at zero% buff, you're now sleeping your way to looting the same boss today with 15% buff. At the same time, the boss you still simply can't get down today is likely to clean up the last tank and a healer forgotten in a corner while the RL is yelling unprintable insults over vent concerning strangely coloured goo on the floor.

Hence, anything that lowers the amount of time during which people are given a chance to take a bath in toxic acid, attack spawned adds before the OT pulls them, stroll around in breath-attacks announced several seconds in advance and in general behave like morons, is a good thing for the raid. Producing more threat, and incidentally dps, does just that.
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Re: Glacial Shield Wall vs Heroic Neverending Winter

Postby inthedrops » Fri May 14, 2010 7:04 am

You will ALWAYS be ridiculed for not going "mainstream". It's just the way it is. People are always comparing themselves to others and looking for flaws in order to be able to say that they are the "better" or "more informed" tank. It's sort of human nature I think.

If you're confident, and you've done your homework or perhaps your own self study, then don't worry what other people say about your gearing or gem choices. Similarly, if you're experimenting or simply not sure, then when people question you about it don't lie. Say that you're not sure and that you're experimenting to see if you can notice the difference, etc. Just be honest!

As for the shields, they're both good. Enchant one for progression and one for threat.

My personal opinion of the BV enchant is that the amount of threat it actually adds is minuscule enough that I don't bother with it. I just stick to stamina. Hell, if my defense was low I'd rather put defense on the shield if it allowed me to swap to a Ret ring or something for threat. I'd rather gain an extra ~20 strength somewhere else than to try and gem my shield for threat.
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Re: Glacial Shield Wall vs Heroic Neverending Winter

Postby yappo » Fri May 14, 2010 7:45 am

inthedrops wrote:
As for the shields, they're both good. Enchant one for progression and one for threat.


While I agree with everything you said (ie everything I handily snipped away), THIS is the point where I don't share your opinion.

1) Everything is on farm -- there is no progression.
2) Healers get a heartattack everytime you pull that boss where you always wipe -- EH is progression.
3) You get a heartattack everytime the raid selfdestructs before you die on the boss where you always wipe -- threat is progression.

Certainly overly simplified, but if the best statistical way to progress is to allow for dps to go bananas to an extent that your current threat doesn't allow, then threat IS progression.

ICC is peculiar in that tanks dying first is rapidly becoming a rare occurrence.
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Re: Glacial Shield Wall vs Heroic Neverending Winter

Postby exiledknight » Fri May 14, 2010 12:21 pm

Barathorn wrote:+18 stamina definately has its place potentially as part of an EH set but with the ICC buff at 15% it is threat and not EH that is now an issue for a lot of ICC10 tanks.
Barathorn


I can not comment on this as I am a 25 man tank and the heroic 10 man gear we have access to is the icing on the cake versus what you guys are provided.
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Re: Glacial Shield Wall vs Heroic Neverending Winter

Postby Ventras » Wed May 19, 2010 2:42 am

In sum, 277 Glacial Wall > 264 Neverending Winter > 264 Glacial Wall.
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