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3.3 Progression Gear Guide

Get help with your character's gear

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Re: 3.3 Progression Gear Guide

Postby Digren » Thu May 06, 2010 2:21 pm

While I'm no fan of avoidance, 3% pure avoidance is better than a 30% chance of 450 blocked. Let's take this up in the other thread talking about this, but I'm surprised that anyone is using the block value libram in a progression set any more.
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Re: 3.3 Progression Gear Guide

Postby Barathorn » Fri May 07, 2010 4:43 am

Digren wrote:While I'm no fan of avoidance, 3% pure avoidance is better than a 30% chance of 450 blocked. Let's take this up in the other thread talking about this, but I'm surprised that anyone is using the block value libram in a progression set any more.


I think the ICC Buff has affected judgements on the BV and strength librams as threat is viewed over avoidance as necessary for a lot of 10 man guilds who have geared DPS now.

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Re: 3.3 Progression Gear Guide

Postby Digren » Fri May 07, 2010 9:17 am

Barathorn wrote:
Digren wrote:While I'm no fan of avoidance, 3% pure avoidance is better than a 30% chance of 450 blocked. Let's take this up in the other thread talking about this, but I'm surprised that anyone is using the block value libram in a progression set any more.


I think the ICC Buff has affected judgements on the BV and strength librams as threat is viewed over avoidance as necessary for a lot of 10 man guilds who have geared DPS now.

Barathorn

Yeah, and I'd use the strength libram over both of those most of the time now. But that's not progression gear - it's gear you wear when farming content you over gear.
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Re: 3.3 Progression Gear Guide

Postby yappo » Fri May 07, 2010 10:39 am

Digren wrote:Yeah, and I'd use the strength libram over both of those most of the time now. But that's not progression gear - it's gear you wear when farming content you over gear.


The level three 25-man tank arguably DOES overgear the content he/she is progressing through :D
I'd say that 8/12 or possibly another two fights are better done with the strength libram compared to the dodge one. I'll keep the BV question to the thread I made specifically for that one though.

On a sidenote. I picked up Wrathful Gladiator's Pendant of Victory in VoA yesterday. RNG hating me I've been saddled with an 232 one, and checking the level three list of necks, I see that this PvP neck is arguably better than anything before Marrowgar's drop, at least if you're hunting stamina at the cost of avoidance.
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Re: 3.3 Progression Gear Guide

Postby Digren » Fri May 07, 2010 11:52 am

yappo wrote:
Digren wrote:Yeah, and I'd use the strength libram over both of those most of the time now. But that's not progression gear - it's gear you wear when farming content you over gear.


The level three 25-man tank arguably DOES overgear the content he/she is progressing through :D
I'd say that 8/12 or possibly another two fights are better done with the strength libram compared to the dodge one. I'll keep the BV question to the thread I made specifically for that one though.

On a sidenote. I picked up Wrathful Gladiator's Pendant of Victory in VoA yesterday. RNG hating me I've been saddled with an 232 one, and checking the level three list of necks, I see that this PvP neck is arguably better than anything before Marrowgar's drop, at least if you're hunting stamina at the cost of avoidance.

I'd bring up the question, then - what is content that you've never beaten but overgear? Can you call that progression content? I argue that you can't. I can't call Marrowgar progression for a first-time 25-man raid if they walked in today stacked with i264 badge gear and the +15% buff. Just like I couldn't call Patchwerk progression if the same group walked in and killed him for the first time today.

We may be in an interesting situation where level three 25-man raiders don't need a progression gear set right now. It's an interesting thought.
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Re: 3.3 Progression Gear Guide

Postby yappo » Fri May 07, 2010 1:51 pm

Digren wrote:I'd bring up the question, then - what is content that you've never beaten but overgear? Can you call that progression content? I argue that you can't. I can't call Marrowgar progression for a first-time 25-man raid if they walked in today stacked with i264 badge gear and the +15% buff. Just like I couldn't call Patchwerk progression if the same group walked in and killed him for the first time today.

We may be in an interesting situation where level three 25-man raiders don't need a progression gear set right now. It's an interesting thought.


I believe that you're posing a very interesting question here.

As for your first question: The pugs (25 man) I join fall apart after Saur, and most often DURING Saur. One example of what I outgear and am not even close to downing would be Rotface. There's noting even remotely dangerous for the tank there, but a disorganised raid will wipe itself without effort anyway. That's a stupid example though, and I know that, but just to give one answer to your question anyway.

As for your second one:

I believe we've already hit the point where we need to make a difference between RAID-progression and TANK-progression. I'd argue that as far as downing content goes, if your group fails over and over again, then it's still progression as far as the group-effort goes, ie RAID-progression.

With the no-brain availability of very good gear (take my own as example and give me perfect RNG from the first wing in ICC 10 and 25, and I end up with pretty brutal gear as far as running ICC 25 normal goes), I see a situation where more and more tanks stare in despair at the raid falling apart long before said tank finally goes down as the normative wipe. That is (in my book) a non-TANK-progression situation.

All in all, I think your level three tank will pass through progression gear long before he/she passes through the content in question, because if he/she is part of a 'good' guild, then, by now, level four should already be applied.

Ie, I think your second question should be answered by a solid affirmative.
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Re: 3.3 Progression Gear Guide

Postby jericho » Fri May 07, 2010 5:22 pm

Digren wrote:We may be in an interesting situation where level three 25-man raiders don't need a progression gear set right now. It's an interesting thought.


This is pretty much the case at this point. With the current level of 15% buff there is no reason any tank geared fairly well in 232 gear could not tank most of ICC25 successfully, 245 gear would be suggested, but not required.

--

On another note, I notice that The Facelifter is not on your list for 25 man raiding melee weapons. Is this an oversight? While I do believe the Bonebreaker Scepter is a far better solution for paladins given our glyph choices, there is still a possibility of obtaining this weapon. We have an extreme lack of expertise gear in this tier of gear.

--

Finally, does your list take into account tier set bonuses? If not, where does the 4 set elevate such things as the Sanctified Tier Chest over the badge chest? Or Sanctified Shoulders over Boneguard?
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Re: 3.3 Progression Gear Guide

Postby Digren » Sat May 08, 2010 10:56 pm

If, then, a level three 25-man tank doesn't need a set of progression gear, should our recommendations change?

Right now I am adamant that a tank maintain his or her best gear in a maxed out effective health set, with the most optimal gems and enchants for survivability. Threat gear, if desired, should be built on alternative and older pieces.

What if, at least until Ruby Sanctum comes out, we should tell all those tanks to stack strength and hit rating in their best gear? I dislike this, and it scares me, for one reason:
  1. The tanks we advise to gear for threat won't know to change back to survivability later.
I don't want to tell someone with a Maintankadin post count of 1 that the best way to gear is by stacking strength and hit rating and expertise. That person might never come back, and the mistaken impression taken from that could last a long time - well into Cataclysm.

Yappo wrote:I believe we've already hit the point where we need to make a difference between RAID-progression and TANK-progression. I'd argue that as far as downing content goes, if your group fails over and over again, then it's still progression as far as the group-effort goes, ie RAID-progression.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Any fight that's not a tank check probably doesn't require a tank to wear progress (i.e. effective health) gear, but it is a raid progression fight so long as the healers or DPS are being challenged and struggling to win.
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Re: 3.3 Progression Gear Guide

Postby Digren » Sat May 08, 2010 11:02 pm

jericho wrote:On another note, I notice that The Facelifter is not on your list for 25 man raiding melee weapons. Is this an oversight? While I do believe the Bonebreaker Scepter is a far better solution for paladins given our glyph choices, there is still a possibility of obtaining this weapon. We have an extreme lack of expertise gear in this tier of gear.

--

Finally, does your list take into account tier set bonuses? If not, where does the 4 set elevate such things as the Sanctified Tier Chest over the badge chest? Or Sanctified Shoulders over Boneguard?


The Facelifter isn't on my 25-man list because, while I assume that a 25-man raider can and will PuG or alt-raid 10-man through Saurfang, I don't assume that a 25-man raider has access to a 10-man group that can down Professor Putricide. I do 25s on Thursdays and Sundays and 10s on Fridays. Our Friday group is our guild raid (25s are in an alliance), so Fridays we have a mix of people who overgear but are used to 25s along with those who don't otherwise raid. In three hours we can clear through Rot/Fester.

Someone who has full access to both 10- and 25-man content would need to merge the two lists to see all possible options. Losing that merged list was a downside of deciding to split level three into 5-, 10-, and 25-man gear sets.

Regarding set bonuses, my lists don't include them at all right now. That said, people here tend to say that the T10 two-piece set bonus is okay for 25-man hard-mode raiders, but isn't really worth it at any other level. The T10 four-piece set bonus is I think never worth it. Thus, leaving them out isn't that bad, at least at this tier. For progression gear I'd never accommodate a threat bonus anyway.
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Re: 3.3 Progression Gear Guide

Postby yappo » Sun May 09, 2010 6:32 am

I'll return with a longer analysis, but I just want to point out that the level four HM 25 list, that you link to, does indeed point at the str-libram as one out of two options (funnily enough the 264-libram is explicitly NOT one of the two options). If 200 strength is good enough for progressing through 25-man hard-mode, i follows that it has to be good enough for progressing through 25-normal mode :D
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Re: 3.3 Progression Gear Guide

Postby Awyndel » Tue May 18, 2010 7:52 am

You should be swapping librams mid fight.

Str for sov, block for socom, and dodge for the tough phases.

For really tough fights you keep dodge the whole time.

You can do similar things with weapons and enchants ofc, if you have that luxery.
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Re: 3.3 Progression Gear Guide

Postby yappo » Sun Jul 04, 2010 6:52 pm

I have added two sections to the failsafe gearing guide.

One handles the discrepancy in emblems gained dependent on how many heroics you run per lockut.

The other is also an addendum as I'm vary of mixing dps/pvp gear with standard tank gear in the guide proper. I've listed a couple of PvP items comparatively appropriate for tanks, together with a short discussion on balancing threat and survivability.
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Re: 3.3 Progression Gear Guide

Postby econ21 » Mon Jul 12, 2010 2:05 pm

I am not sure how I missed this guide - I've been referring new level 80s to Eanin's failsafe guide (and then to Yappo's), but this subsumes it.

A few points on the level 3 5-man tank:

- There is no reason not to include the pillars of might and boots of kingly upheaval, with primordial saronite falling in price so much, they are just expensive not ridiculously expensive.

- You could include some better weapons than the item level 200 failsafe ones in level 2: notably Rimefang's claw/Falric's axe and, given the discussion we've been having about slow dps weapons, Nighttime and the Battered Hilt blade.

- Darkmoon card greatness is a top threat trinket that a tank would not regret saving for.

You don't need to raid to get any of these. Yes, some are expensive and probably time consuming to acquire, but no more so than a non-raider decking herself out in full frost gear. For a few months, my guild was not raiding, so I set the above as some objectives for my grinding and they paid off quite well, with ICC drops filling in gaps in my gear rather than replacing it wholesale.
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Re: 3.3 Progression Gear Guide

Postby yappo » Mon Jul 12, 2010 3:25 pm

econ21 wrote:
- You could include some better weapons than the item level 200 failsafe ones in level 2: notably Rimefang's claw/Falric's axe and, given the discussion we've been having about slow dps weapons, Nighttime and the Battered Hilt blade.

- Darkmoon card greatness is a top threat trinket that a tank would not regret saving for.


The level 2 should get the tank into ICC 10. ICC 5 drops are possibly even less likely to drop than Marrow's mace (unless the tank explicitly targets the instances in question every day).

I agree on the +90 str trinket though. With 25% extra cheese on everything the level 2 tank is overgeared for ICC 10 and should trinket strength rather than 1800 armour for most of the content.
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Re: 3.3 Progression Gear Guide

Postby econ21 » Mon Jul 12, 2010 4:21 pm

yappo wrote:The level 2 should get the tank into ICC 10. ICC 5 drops are possibly even less likely to drop than Marrow's mace (unless the tank explicitly targets the instances in question every day).


I'm not sure about going into ICC with an item level 200 weapon. Yes, you could do it (PUG or guild willing) and it's a failsafe, but this kind of gear guide is about ranking the best options at each level. And while drops are random, there are about half a dozen 219 and 232 one handers so most tanks should be able to pick one up while gearing for ICC. ICC drops will quickly replace most stuff of 232 or lower, but that's not an issue for a level 3 5-man tank (or even for most people gearing up for ICC). Given that the guide lists the 232 HOR neck, I think for consistency it should list the associated weapons.
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