Armsman, again

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Re: Armsman, again

Postby Meloree » Mon Apr 19, 2010 11:10 pm

I don't have the same threat issues everyone else is talking about. I almost always wear a Crusader's Glory (245) and an Onyxia ring (245), both of which are extremely poor threat options. I only run with 69 hit rating (gloves) and exactly 26 expertise including glyph - 61 rating, from the boots alone. I can reliably expect at least 2 Tricks/MDs are the start of a fight and/or threat wipes to cover burst threat. Any additional tricks tend to go to afflocks/SPs on pull, so they can roll their pre-potted Corruption with tricks as well. I rarely get an MD after the pull, hunters would rather use their globals for dps. I rarely get tricks after the pull, we use them for DPS. People just don't pull. As our recent Deathwhispers prove, most of the DPS still doesn't actually run Omen, they aren't slowing down, they're just not able to outthreat the tanks.

That said, Armsman isn't a terrible choice of enchant. For 240 armor or 18 stamina, you pick up 2% threat - worth somewhere in the ballpark of 100 str for threat. For pure threat purposes, that's a pretty good trade. It's never going on my progression gloves, and any other gloves I have are already a much lower threat option, so it's certainly not an option for me - and it's probably not an option for anyone in my position. If you had, for example, ilvl 264 tier gloves, and Gauntlets of the Kraken, it wouldn't be a terrible trade to put armsman on the 264 tier.

That said, I'm still convinced that if you're having threat problems without being severely outgeared by your DPS, it is within your control to fix it - by tightening up your rotation and by properly making use of the tools available in your raid to control threat. No matter how convinced you are that you're doing it right - if you're having threat problems, you're probably doing something suboptimal.
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Re: Armsman, again

Postby Digren » Tue Apr 20, 2010 2:19 pm

Related to threat, then, what sort of weapon are you guys using in your progression gear? The fact that I can't get a tank weapon in normal-mode 25-man content leads me to think that Blizzard doesn't want me using tank weapons. And yet they put one in for 10-man folks.

My raid recently (as in, with a mix of ToC and ICC gear) got XT down in hard mode, and I upgraded from a Flame Leviathon weapon to XT's tank weapon. I have not had luck getting 10-man Marrogar's weapon. After that, there's nothing left on my upgrade list.

I guess, in short, if it is determined that the average "good" tank needs to start gearing, gemming, or enchanting for threat, where should they start? I doubt Armsman will be the first choice; something like a DPS weapon with Accuracy seems like a better first step, but I haven't run numbers.
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Re: Armsman, again

Postby chinoquezada » Tue Apr 20, 2010 2:38 pm

Any slow 1hander works wonders for threat
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Re: Armsman, again

Postby Wrathy » Wed Apr 21, 2010 11:57 am

Digren wrote:Related to threat, then, what sort of weapon are you guys using in your progression gear? The fact that I can't get a tank weapon in normal-mode 25-man content leads me to think that Blizzard doesn't want me using tank weapons. And yet they put one in for 10-man folks....

I doubt Armsman will be the first choice; something like a DPS weapon with Accuracy seems like a better first step, but I haven't run numbers.


I use a slew of weapons depending on the gear set and the encounter. However, for progression, save HM Sindragosa and HM Lady Deathwhisper, Last Word is great for threat (although it is my Progression mace so it has blood draining), but if i find that I am missing too much, I swap to a Heroic Gutbuster (with accuracy) .

On a similar note, I modified my gearset around a bit last night for our raid and fixed my threat issues substantially. A detailed evaluation of a lot of our parses over the past few weeks showed that my threat issues were mostly a result of a significant miss rate for some of our best threat generating attacks. I sacrificed a bit of armor and stamina for hit, boosting my hit from 124 up to 230, while not really changing anything else about my gear and my threat issues were gone.

Finally, with mel's comments (and we discussed this earlier as well), I believe his dps are just better at managing their threat, and I may have had an unlucky week. With 124 hit I had an average miss rate on my attacks of 7.8%. That is not really that probable on a sustained basis, and more hit will mitigate the chance of reoccurrence...
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Re: Armsman, again

Postby Gamingdevil » Thu Apr 22, 2010 5:42 am

Wrathy wrote:With 124 hit I had an average miss rate on my attacks of 7.8%. That is not really that probable on a sustained basis, and more hit will mitigate the chance of reoccurrence...


That seems a rather high miss rate, seeing as only taunts and Exo are on the spell hit cap and Cons can't even miss.
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Re: Armsman, again

Postby inthedrops » Thu Apr 22, 2010 8:03 am

Glad you solved your problems Wrathy.
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Re: Armsman, again

Postby Wrathy » Thu Apr 22, 2010 1:25 pm

Gamingdevil wrote:That seems a rather high miss rate, seeing as only taunts and Exo are on the spell hit cap and Cons can't even miss.


Yep thats some really really bad luck, unless the parse is incorrect.
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Re: Armsman, again

Postby bads » Wed Apr 28, 2010 7:55 pm

I only have 55 hit in my general progression set and even swapping in the ony/toc rings (0 hit) I never find myself threat capping dps. I do plan to replace my kraken with 277 tier eventually, which should provide a slight threat bump to compensate for DPS gearing up.

I have, however, recently noticed that druid tanks really push me for threat in some situations, specifically on BQL and trash.

I would think that picking up accuracy or trading some avoidance for hit (gloves) would be better initial trade offs instead of sacrificing armor/stamina. You could also try out last word, I am a pretty big fan.
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Re: Armsman, again

Postby Dantriges » Thu Apr 29, 2010 4:53 am

I´ve got a mostly caster group in 10 mans and my threat broke in during the last few runs. We had an enhancement schaman on our last run and well the threat was more back to normal.
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Re: Armsman, again

Postby exiledknight » Wed May 12, 2010 1:46 pm

Digren wrote:My raid recently (as in, with a mix of ToC and ICC gear) got XT down in hard mode, and I upgraded from a Flame Leviathon weapon to XT's tank weapon. I have not had luck getting 10-man Marrogar's weapon. After that, there's nothing left on my upgrade list.


Normal 25 man offers Last Word which is really an amazing weapon overall, especially in the case like me where your over 50 10 man heroic anub kills and no crusader's glory. Right there are two weapons that are upgrades over the XT mace and fairly easily accessible even if you pug 25 mans, with the 10% buff on our server a GDKP pug started clearing PP, and I have heard of a few others do so now as well since the 15% hit.
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Re: Armsman, again

Postby Digren » Thu May 13, 2010 10:43 am

exiledknight wrote:
Digren wrote:My raid recently (as in, with a mix of ToC and ICC gear) got XT down in hard mode, and I upgraded from a Flame Leviathon weapon to XT's tank weapon. I have not had luck getting 10-man Marrogar's weapon. After that, there's nothing left on my upgrade list.


Normal 25 man offers Last Word which is really an amazing weapon overall, especially in the case like me where your over 50 10 man heroic anub kills and no crusader's glory. Right there are two weapons that are upgrades over the XT mace and fairly easily accessible even if you pug 25 mans, with the 10% buff on our server a GDKP pug started clearing PP, and I have heard of a few others do so now as well since the 15% hit.

We haven't downed Putricide yet. We're clearing Fester and Rot, but have been focusing on BQ before Sindragosa. We're raid time limited but haven't yet been willing to extend the instance as people still want things from the stuff we're clearing.
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Re: Armsman, again

Postby Flex » Thu May 13, 2010 3:05 pm

chinoquezada wrote:Strength of Wrynn not scaling as well for us than for dps, pretty much threat cap us.


Paladin threat is 100% derived from damage done, 15% more damage is 15% more threat. As far as I am aware only warriors and druids do not get 15% more threat from 15% more damage done due to static threat adds on Heroic Strike and Maul and the AP as threat on Devastate/Sunder
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Re: Armsman, again

Postby Barathorn » Thu May 13, 2010 11:57 pm

Flex wrote:
chinoquezada wrote:Strength of Wrynn not scaling as well for us than for dps, pretty much threat cap us.


Paladin threat is 100% derived from damage done, 15% more damage is 15% more threat. As far as I am aware only warriors and druids do not get 15% more threat from 15% more damage done due to static threat adds on Heroic Strike and Maul and the AP as threat on Devastate/Sunder


I agree but 15% more damage at 15% crit is not the same as 15% more damage at 35-45% crit. That is where the problem can be in simplistic terms.

I seem to be ok on boss fights but I have MD's and TotT, it is trash where I seem to have issues. I don't think armsman is bad, but it won't replace my +26 agility unless I have issues on boss fights.
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Re: Armsman, again

Postby yappo » Fri May 14, 2010 4:13 am

Barathorn wrote:
I seem to be ok on boss fights but I have MD's and TotT, it is trash where I seem to have issues. I don't think armsman is bad, but it won't replace my +26 agility unless I have issues on boss fights.


I've taken some advice given here to heart, and maintaining hit-cap and soft-exp-cap did indeed yield more than the 2% armsman has to offer, and I'm again generating more threat than my (admittedly mediocre) dps. This is likely to change as my dps picks up more and more 264 gear, in which case the agi-chant may have to go.
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Re: Armsman, again

Postby Digren » Fri May 14, 2010 8:53 am

I think a pair of T10.5 gloves (free from VoA, ideally) enchanted with Armsman and a hit/str gem could be one of the best resources a paladin tank could have for trash.
http://www.wowhead.com/item=51172

Switch em with your EH gloves for trash and you'll be fine. (And if you use your T10.5 head in both sets, you'll pick up the set bonus on trash for more threat, too.)
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