Armsman, again

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Armsman, again

Postby yappo » Mon Apr 19, 2010 3:39 am

I see more and more complaints about threat, ingame as well as on forums lately.

Even though most of us being active on maintankadin agrees on 'solve your personal issues with the tools readily available' method, I want to call out that Armsman is labelled as a BAD enchants, which kind of removes it from the list of 'readily available tools'.

It's 2%, nothing fancy, but for the progressing tanks who are having issues despite pumping out decent threat, well it COULD help. At least if dps rip the target away a couple of minutes into the fight on a regular basis.

Would it be possible to reunsert it in the list of optional enchants, with a clear description on WHEN it's an option instead of just bad? And DO call me out on my hamster heritage if it turns out it already is and I was just too lazy to check up such a change :D
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Re: Armsman, again

Postby Barathorn » Mon Apr 19, 2010 3:54 am

I think that is a reasonable call if the math says it is on par with other enchants for maintankalevels 1-2.
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Re: Armsman, again

Postby lythac » Mon Apr 19, 2010 3:59 am

Digren's 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide does have Armsman listed as a threat option and that is the go to guide as far as I am aware.

Most of the threat problem threads that are not about bad rotation, undergearing etc mainly mention other tanks threat being the problem and not DPS threat.
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Re: Armsman, again

Postby yappo » Mon Apr 19, 2010 4:11 am

lythac wrote:Digren's 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide does have Armsman listed as a threat option and that is the go to guide as far as I am aware.

Most of the threat problem threads that are not about bad rotation, undergearing etc mainly mention other tanks threat being the problem and not DPS threat.


I almost thought I was out on a hamster hunt, but then I read the guide again :D

I would disagree that 'gimmick fights' are the only ones where threat would be a problem nowadays.

Making a wild guess I'll set up a hypothetical situation. 25-man raiding guild with four active tanks. One benched for the 25-man runs. Guild also runs two parallell 10-man every week, during which the fourth tank gets activated. RNG hating said tank has him/her saddled with Rimefang's Claw, but he/she is still way more progressed than I am, despite not having the wow-gold to go shopping for a 264 ring, Pillars of Might and Boots of Kingly Upheaval, so I would be the better GEARED tank.
Those 25-man raiding dps will ride the poor tank's threat like mad.

If said tank pumps out almost 3k dps single-target, then that's pretty decent threat, but it's simply not enough. In reality I'd guess around 2800 dps or so.
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Re: Armsman, again

Postby Digren » Mon Apr 19, 2010 9:03 am

I use the word "gimmick" to designate any situation when the tank does not wear his or her high-end effective health progression gear. I wanted it to be absolutely clear to anyone reading the guide that other fights - like Anub adds (as the only recent example) - were not covered by my guide and were not a reason to redesign a primary tanking set. (My "best for threat" and "best for block" tags partially cover these alternatives, but the recommendations are based solely on EH / progression.)

Really the question is - would you take your best end-game effective health progression gloves, and replace the stamina or armor enchant with Armsman? Or would you take your second best / old gloves, put Armsman on them, and use them when you felt like you needed threat?

If the answer is the former, and consensus agrees, then I'll upgrade Armsman to a recommended enchant for tank levels three and four. If the answer is the latter, then I think I have them labeled correctly now.
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Re: Armsman, again

Postby Digren » Mon Apr 19, 2010 9:12 am

I've been having threat problems myself, in two ways:

1. Holding aggro against a warrior co-tank has been harder on trash. Still, if I get the MDs I tank, if he does, he tanks. But since I really don't care who tanks trash, I don't worry much about this.

2. Holding aggro against DPS when playing around in 10-man ICC or in older content (BT / SWP crawl, etc.). It seems my threat ability scales back in the absence of full raid buffs and incoming raid damage more than my DPS' threat ability. The DPS likely also get cocky since they think they can take hits in this content.

For the latter specifically I finally broke down this weekend and made a threat set. As of right now, my threat set is my effective health progression set, except I swapped my Heart of Iron trinket for an inexpensive Mark of Supremacy. I'm not willing to drop below iLvl 245 gear to build a threat set, as doing so costs me too much threat in the form of strength anyway. When I get a pair of iLvl 264 gloves, I'll consider Armsman on my current gloves as a threat piece. (I'll probably switch to strength and hit gems on it at the same time. If it's for threat, I might as well go all out and make the best-possible threat piece.)
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Re: Armsman, again

Postby inthedrops » Mon Apr 19, 2010 9:21 am

This thread reminds me I need to do the same (throw some armor on the progression gloves). Thanks :)
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Re: Armsman, again

Postby yappo » Mon Apr 19, 2010 10:01 am

Digren wrote:Really the question is - would you take your best end-game effective health progression gloves, and replace the stamina or armor enchant with Armsman? Or would you take your second best / old gloves, put Armsman on them, and use them when you felt like you needed threat?

If the answer is the former, and consensus agrees, then I'll upgrade Armsman to a recommended enchant for tank levels three and four. If the answer is the latter, then I think I have them labeled correctly now.



I honestly believe that the (somewhat surprised) consensus is that as we get better and better gear, then the 'paladin almighty threat-master' starts having problems with maintaining that threat-lead. It could be bad rotation or dps being too lazy to redirect threat to the pally tank. Still, if the tankadin has cleaned up his/her act and tanks as well as his/her gear allows, and STILL caps the raid, then the only thing left for increasing threat (rather than reeducating people how to decrease threat / increase tank-threat) is to find ways to:

1) Increase dps, and implicityly threat.

2) Increase threat, which pretty much translates into Armsman as the only option.


Raids are slowly scaling into an overall ilevel 264 gear-set. At 20% or better zone-wide buff I think we'll see the "average" hardcore guild start collecting 277 as the norm, and pally tanks should start having problems by then.

If you correlate with Blizzard's Cata previews it's pretty clear they're anticipating an "oh shit" situation pretty soon, because talking about 'scaling issues', and the remedies planned for the future, is a bland way of expressing: "Shit incoming to the fan, but we hope Cata-implementation will be live before too many notice we screweed up." in coorporate lingo ;)
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Re: Armsman, again

Postby Digren » Mon Apr 19, 2010 11:35 am

Edit the threat title to read "Armsman in progression gear" and let's see if we can get some of the usuals (i.e. in this case, Meloree) to comment. It was my impression that most of the problems have been seen in level three content (i.e. ICC non-hard), where the threat of death has been greatly reduced due to the zone buff while at the same time DPS has been amplified by that buff. Meanwhile, I thought hard-mode ICC was still damn hard, and so DPS were still willing to accommodate a maxed-out EH tank.
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Re: Armsman, again

Postby inthedrops » Mon Apr 19, 2010 12:14 pm

Digren wrote:Edit the threat title to read "Armsman in progression gear" and let's see if we can get some of the usuals (i.e. in this case, Meloree) to comment. It was my impression that most of the problems have been seen in level three content (i.e. ICC non-hard), where the threat of death has been greatly reduced due to the zone buff while at the same time DPS has been amplified by that buff. Meanwhile, I thought hard-mode ICC was still damn hard, and so DPS were still willing to accommodate a maxed-out EH tank.


Well, I'm not "one of the usuals" but any raid working on LK 25 hardmode probably has tanks and a raid that know what they're doing. While these are the people who suffer the most from the current threat scaling issues, they are also the ones who play well enough that it's not an issue.

Put another way, loss of 2% threat is not a deal breaker on any fight in ICC, in any variation. So use whatever you think fills the biggest weakness for your raid.

This isn't about you, but so much time is spent on formulas. Sometimes it's best to just do what you think makes the most sense for your situation, using the guides here as just that, not law.
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Re: Armsman, again

Postby Digren » Mon Apr 19, 2010 12:32 pm

inthedrops wrote:]This isn't about you, but so much time is spent on formulas. Sometimes it's best to just do what you think makes the most sense for your situation, using the guides here as just that, not law.


Of course, "only you, the experienced tankadin, knows what's best for you given your gear and raid role."

At the same time the guides need to be as accurate as possible, because if the entirety of the guide just stated "Do what you think makes the most sense" then we'd see thousands and thousands of tanks gearing and gemming and enchanting for avoidance and strength and hit.

Make the guide perfect, then IMO anyone who thinks they can do better is most welcome to try. If moreover they can convince others that their method is in fact better than the guide (and is applicable to typical raid makeup and situations), then the guide is no longer perfect and needs to be improved.
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Re: Armsman, again

Postby inthedrops » Mon Apr 19, 2010 1:35 pm

My apologies. I didn't mean that as a slight about guides at all. I throughly ingest and study them all with much appreciation. I make sure I understand the reasons behind them so that I know when it makes the most sense to apply the guidance, and when it's ok to safely ignore it :)

To those that create and maintain these guides, keep up the good work!

To those that consume them, they're just a tool!
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Re: Armsman, again

Postby Wrathy » Mon Apr 19, 2010 3:45 pm

I guess I will add my two cents to this thread. I have been meaning to start a discussion on gearing and threat generation issues but have not gotten around to it. After talking with Meloree for a while last night, It has become apparent that we are not having the same issues, however as for me, here are my observations.

From the past few parses of our guilds ICC 25 man, a glaring issue has arose in my ability to produce threat. I have been noticing that there have been threat capping issues which I have never really encountered before. While 99% of the posts that come out here to ask about threat issues can be solved with a tweak in the 969, or the identification that a proper 969 was not used, I am confident that this is not my case, I have been an upper tier tank for a very long time now, and my 969 is so ingrained into my muscle memory that that is not the issue at hand.

The major issue that I have been running into, and one that Armsman will not truly be the appropriate solution to, is lack of Hit. While we have voiced time and time again that you can successfully tank with 0 hit and do your job to produce threat, gear increase in your dps will make this a slight fallacy. I have noticed on many fights that I am threat capping some of my dps, or at least getting very close, with the ranged riding above the 100% line. After careful observation of the parses for these specific bosses, there are two glaring issues.

1) Misses and Dodges. While I have many gear sets (7 tank sets in fact), the one that I use for most of our "Progression" fights is lacking in both hit and expertise. I am down to 124 hit and anywhere between 12 and 22 hit depending on the set up. This has lead to a very high amount of miss, dodge and parry, adding to the issue of threat. You can 969 to your hearts content, but if your attacks are not landing you have some issues.

2) Gear disparity. Our guild has had very bad luck with tank drops, and as a result, my increase in strength and expertise from gear, via upgrades, is not what it should be in comparison to our dps. Most of our dps has a very healthy lead on my overall gear level, providing for issues in threat generation via damage done. This is a lesser issue which is not the main cause of the threat generation issues, but an ancillary one.

In the end, you should first look at your parses to understand why you are having threat issues before thinking about armsman, because if the root cause of your threat issues is miss, dodge, and parry, hit and expertise will do much more for you than 2% threat increase on the hits that do land.

EDIT: P.S. Digren, have I been away from the boards that much ;-) j/k
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Re: Armsman, again

Postby chinoquezada » Mon Apr 19, 2010 5:00 pm

I would say that my threat issues are the same as what Wrathy describes.
I became a tank quite late into ICC25. Basically just as my current guild unlocked hard modes.

The issue is quite simple, higher ilvls of tank gear offer little to no upgrade in terms of threat. That, added to Strength of Wrynn not scaling as well for us than for dps, pretty much threat cap us.

As the Str of Wrynn buff increases (and dps get more and more 277s) we will begin to see a huge threat-capping issue.

If only we could get sp from health as before, all would be fine.
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Re: Armsman, again

Postby Raivnor » Mon Apr 19, 2010 10:25 pm

I personally have found that both hit and expertise have been vital to maintaining viable raid tanking in ICC. I did not consider threat stats to be important to tanking even through ToC, but now I've noticed that my anal retentive attention to hit and exp caps have paid off in making me more viable than any other tank in my guild. I think much more important than armsman in this latest tier has been the actual maintaining of a gear list and desired stat numbers. I have often kept gear in my bag until later for my main tank set because it did not move the numbers in the right direction. As I progress further and further in ICC, I've found that my tanking has improved geometrically as every piece I gain potentially brings in another piece that I was leaving on the sidelines.

To wit, I still don't recommend Armsman, unless you have exhausted every other possible alternative. There is plenty of room in the gear they have put into ICC to maintain acceptable threat, health pool, and survivability; and it is far more productive to match the pieces to the need then to apply what is essentially a bandaid. One which will once again make you feel ineffectual once that hunter who doesn't know where his misdirect button is gets that new shiny bow he's been after.
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