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ICC Buff - Impact on gearing

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Re: ICC Buff - Impact on gearing

Postby Barathorn » Tue Apr 06, 2010 3:54 am

Wrathy wrote:Just in case you are curious, I looked into swapping out gems for a holistic approach. The buff in and of it self covers the loss of stamina, so if you were not dying before the 10% buff went active, you can ensure more avoidance, or threat, and still have a similar health pool.

More info on my blog post today with chardev references and everything...

And, bara, sorry but I am with mel on this one, my view of 10 man is probably too skewed to give you an accurate answer, however with the availability of the 264 non tier pieces for 10 man raiders, you guys should be doing quite a bit better than any previous patch. I have tanked the hard modes in my threat set (with out any stam trinkets or tank rings either, 39k hp 28k armor unbuffed) and survived just fine, so I would like to say that the gear available to you is more than enough to be able to pick up any bonus, but I am not positive because it is not something I have experienced.


Thanks Wrathy. I will run [if time allows] through ICC10's first wing plus 1-2 bosses from the other wings in a new set up where I match +9 Stamina socket bonuses [and potentially +6] hopefully this week so I can see how it fares.

Would be good if another 10 man raider more progressed than I could check on the later bosses using the same sort of criteria. My thoughts on it now are that the buff will only increase over time so really the way we gear can reflect this.

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Re: ICC Buff - Impact on gearing

Postby halabar » Tue Apr 06, 2010 8:21 am

Well.. two thoughts. In my 25m last week, I was hitting 59k with the buff. Not doing hard modes, so with any more buff, it would seem logical that we could gem for the bonuses, but it not might really matter. As long as the healers aren't idiots, we aren't dying first. (Except perhaps when I fail at kiting slimes, but that's another story...)

However, let me ask this.. how do you think Ruby Sanctum will be tuned? That might be the real test, as the ICC buff might be skewing our perception. (Then again, if there isn't a dodge reduction in Ruby, because it's probably all unavoidable damage, stam stacking might be the rage again).
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Re: ICC Buff - Impact on gearing

Postby yappo » Tue Apr 06, 2010 9:15 am

halabar wrote:However, let me ask this.. how do you think Ruby Sanctum will be tuned? That might be the real test, as the ICC buff might be skewing our perception. (Then again, if there isn't a dodge reduction in Ruby, because it's probably all unavoidable damage, stam stacking might be the rage again).



Well, if there's a dragon, there's likely to be big BOOMs that totally disregard any armour in a cone from the dragon's mouth :D

Anyway, the current ICC buffing will definitely play a role in overgearing players for the Ruby Sanctum. I base this assumption on the unlikelyhood that you'll need to be geared 251/264 in order to be able to raid for 251/264 drops. Once again assuming the sanctum doesn't come with a higher than ICC baseline rewards.

I could be horribly wrong, but I'd guess that Ruby Sanctum will be in-line with Obsidian Sanctum for Naxx-raiders. In fact I guess RS to be tuned to gear up "late" guilds for pushing through ICC before Cata, but hey, that's a lot of guessing from my side ;)
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Re: ICC Buff - Impact on gearing

Postby Meloree » Tue Apr 06, 2010 11:27 am

yappo wrote:
halabar wrote:However, let me ask this.. how do you think Ruby Sanctum will be tuned? That might be the real test, as the ICC buff might be skewing our perception. (Then again, if there isn't a dodge reduction in Ruby, because it's probably all unavoidable damage, stam stacking might be the rage again).



Well, if there's a dragon, there's likely to be big BOOMs that totally disregard any armour in a cone from the dragon's mouth :D

Anyway, the current ICC buffing will definitely play a role in overgearing players for the Ruby Sanctum. I base this assumption on the unlikelyhood that you'll need to be geared 251/264 in order to be able to raid for 251/264 drops. Once again assuming the sanctum doesn't come with a higher than ICC baseline rewards.

I could be horribly wrong, but I'd guess that Ruby Sanctum will be in-line with Obsidian Sanctum for Naxx-raiders. In fact I guess RS to be tuned to gear up "late" guilds for pushing through ICC before Cata, but hey, that's a lot of guessing from my side ;)


They suggested that Ruby Sanctum would have LK level loot. That implies 258/271/284. One hopes it will not be completely "free loot".
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Re: ICC Buff - Impact on gearing

Postby theckhd » Tue Apr 06, 2010 11:36 am

Wrathy wrote:Just in case you are curious, I looked into swapping out gems for a holistic approach. The buff in and of it self covers the loss of stamina, so if you were not dying before the 10% buff went active, you can ensure more avoidance, or threat, and still have a similar health pool.

More info on my blog post today with chardev references and everything...


Just as a side note, since I didn't see it in your blog post (or the thread so far): It's been mentioned that we're so high on the DR curve that the avoidance gains to be had from regemming are pretty minimal, which is a fair point. But defense also gives you block rating, which is in short supply and reasonably useful in ICC, and is also not on diminishing returns.

I already do agi/stam for +9 bonuses, and I doubt I'll deviate from that philosophy (the +6 bonuses just seem like too weak a trade). However +9 bonuses from yellow gem sockets are looking considerably more attractive, and I could imagine socketing def/stam for the extra block rating.

Note that this all assumes you're not gearing for HMLK - in that case you're probably better off sticking with raw EH/Stam according to what I've read.
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Re: ICC Buff - Impact on gearing

Postby theckhd » Tue Apr 06, 2010 11:36 am

Meloree wrote:They suggested that Ruby Sanctum would have LK level loot. That implies 258/271/284. One hopes it will not be completely "free loot".

That all depends on how bad the Ruby Radiance debuff will be. :P
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Re: ICC Buff - Impact on gearing

Postby Meyrinn » Thu Apr 08, 2010 11:19 am

Barathorn wrote:
Wrathy wrote:Just in case you are curious, I looked into swapping out gems for a holistic approach. The buff in and of it self covers the loss of stamina, so if you were not dying before the 10% buff went active, you can ensure more avoidance, or threat, and still have a similar health pool.

More info on my blog post today with chardev references and everything...

And, bara, sorry but I am with mel on this one, my view of 10 man is probably too skewed to give you an accurate answer, however with the availability of the 264 non tier pieces for 10 man raiders, you guys should be doing quite a bit better than any previous patch. I have tanked the hard modes in my threat set (with out any stam trinkets or tank rings either, 39k hp 28k armor unbuffed) and survived just fine, so I would like to say that the gear available to you is more than enough to be able to pick up any bonus, but I am not positive because it is not something I have experienced.


Thanks Wrathy. I will run [if time allows] through ICC10's first wing plus 1-2 bosses from the other wings in a new set up where I match +9 Stamina socket bonuses [and potentially +6] hopefully this week so I can see how it fares.

Would be good if another 10 man raider more progressed than I could check on the later bosses using the same sort of criteria. My thoughts on it now are that the buff will only increase over time so really the way we gear can reflect this.

Barathorn


My main isn't a 10 man raider. But, on Saturday daytime we run alts and friends through 10 man. This is just a relax and enjoy the ride kind of run that never had the goal of clearing the instance. Our tanks have no 25 man gear, and they even have some 232 badge pieces still. Prior to the 10% buff, nothing was an issue except Sindy and LK, and that was more a DPS execution issue. Alot of the friends that people bring in on these runs aren't in high end guilds and their DPS is pretty low. We haven't always cleared the instance because we just stop after 3 hours, which is more like 2 hours raiding because people take breaks and mess around alot. Once the 10% buff came in LK was the only issue, and that was more just an issue of poor play.

For Sindy, just make a few Frost Resist pieces and its not that hard on the tanks. We've killed LK with 50K buffed tanks and it wasn't tank deaths that caused the wipes.
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Re: ICC Buff - Impact on gearing

Postby Lieris » Fri Apr 09, 2010 11:52 am

Barathorn wrote:
Thanks Wrathy. I will run [if time allows] through ICC10's first wing plus 1-2 bosses from the other wings in a new set up where I match +9 Stamina socket bonuses [and potentially +6] hopefully this week so I can see how it fares.

Would be good if another 10 man raider more progressed than I could check on the later bosses using the same sort of criteria. My thoughts on it now are that the buff will only increase over time so really the way we gear can reflect this.

Barathorn


I really don't think it makes any tangible difference. Whether you socket pure stamina or go for hybrid gems to get maybe 3 or 4 socket bonuses it really doesn't matter much in the grand scheme of things.

Optimising gear is fun and I do think +9s are the way to go but it's nothing that you or your healers would be able to perceive if you switched around for one raid.
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Re: ICC Buff - Impact on gearing

Postby Marblehead » Sat Apr 10, 2010 6:55 am

Even with a bigger buff than the 10%, I wouldn't change my enchanting strategy (armor>stamina>avoidance=threat) neither my gem strategy (all stam except matching head +12 stam bonus and blue/red +9 stam bonuses), cause my guild is on the brink of unlocking heroics and ruby sanctum is around the corner without having a similar buff. (maybe i'll just enchant defence on chest due to my FrR sindra set leaving me critable if I use Last Word with it)

Instead, I counter the high levels of unneeded EH with gear changes, like 4pT10 for some unhittable moments combined with a dodge trinket or double threat trinkets (greatness+tiny abom for the lulz) for farmed bosses or 2pT10+2pT9 with berserking dps weapon for trash ownage.

In the end, trading EH for avoidance/threat is an empirical procedure of how much you can give up without straining your given healers. Even if we're talking about progression, i think that changing a piece of gear or two is better than changing enchant/gem strategies, since with the buff we're already way above the EH minimums and we may need our EH set during the next 6 months or so until the expansion.
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Re: ICC Buff - Impact on gearing

Postby Digren » Wed Apr 14, 2010 7:44 am

I added the following Q&A to the gem and enchant guide:

What about Strength of Wrynn / Hellscream Warsong? Doesn't the ICC buff change everything?

The consensus is that the the large stamina buff could allow level three Icecrown tanks to switch some stamina back to avoidance. Be careful, though; Ruby Sanctum will likely be tuned differently. You could drop your stamina stacking ratio slightly, like from 2.0+ to 1.3, or, so you are ready for both zones, you could switch out some progression gear for avoidance or threat. Read the discussion about the ICC buff for thoughts about this change.



The link is back to this thread.
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Re: ICC Buff - Impact on gearing

Postby ginga-uk » Fri Apr 16, 2010 7:59 am

So... I have been reading this site a long time. Although I rarely post... I actually feel like I have contributed something now. Evern if I only started the conversation that plucked valuable insight from you guys.
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Re: ICC Buff - Impact on gearing

Postby Barathorn » Fri Apr 16, 2010 8:23 am

Ginga-uk wrote:So... I have been reading this site a long time. Although I rarely post... I actually feel like I have contributed something now. Evern if I only started the conversation that plucked valuable insight from you guys.


Never be afraid to ask no matter how stupid the question seems if you cannot find the answer already on the forum. We all started somewhere and every contribution no matter how small makes us all better tanks. You can never know it all no matter who you are, so everyday you learn something new is a good day.

I had no idea what I was doing until level 62, I really didn't. Then I found this place and it all fitted together. I asked some purely stupid questions back then and I probably still do ask things are are second nature to other people to this day :wink: If you can't find the answer ask the question.

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Re: ICC Buff - Impact on gearing

Postby hoho » Fri Apr 16, 2010 8:34 am

Meloree wrote:They suggested that Ruby Sanctum would have LK level loot. That implies 258/271/284. One hopes it will not be completely "free loot".
I might be mistaken but I remember them hinting it being ICC level so 251/264/277.
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Re: ICC Buff - Impact on gearing

Postby yappo » Tue Apr 27, 2010 1:05 pm

Minor NECRO (ok a 11 day necro, so not all that bad).

15% now. During the coming raid-lockout I guess people will experience what the extra 5% is really worth. Keeping the gearing related observations in this already existing thread is probably a good idea :D
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Re: ICC Buff - Impact on gearing

Postby Vorianloken » Wed Apr 28, 2010 2:57 pm

yappo wrote:Minor NECRO (ok a 11 day necro, so not all that bad).

15% now. During the coming raid-lockout I guess people will experience what the extra 5% is really worth. Keeping the gearing related observations in this already existing thread is probably a good idea :D


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