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ICC Buff - Impact on gearing

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ICC Buff - Impact on gearing

Postby ginga-uk » Wed Mar 31, 2010 1:27 am

So I'm not hard mode material... or at least not in the guild I am currently in, given our more casual bias, however I follow the discussions on things like Effective health, and the ICC buff has got me wondering.

10% is pretty big. Even at my modest gear levels that's another 4 or 5k health. Which is probably in the same sort of realms as the sort of boost you get from stam gearing as opposed to matching for reasonable socket bonuses.

So the question is this. How big does the buff need to be before you decide that you are now above or well above the EH requirement, and in fact you'd now be better served by moving your gemming/enchanting strategy back to avoidance. Of course the answer will depend on your current gear levels as well, but i'm hoping for more discussion that just "it depends..."

On a personal level, since I am can't commit to enough evenings to be in a guild that regularly tries hard modes I havn't gemmed just for Stam, and I have 9 non-blue gems. Excluding the 1 I need for the meta that's potentially 120 stam I am missing out on. Add in a shoulder enchant, and more health on chest (vs +10 stats). we come to a total of about 2k health (perhaps less looking at socket bonuses). For that I instead have 50 Agility, 55 def rating, and 20 dodge rating. Given that the 10% more than covers the stam deficit, am I helping my healers more with the ~2% more avoidance (guestimate no maths done here)

This is me if anyone is interested, although the question is really meant as a generalisation as opposed to being about me.

http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet ... g&cn=ginga
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Re: ICC Buff - Impact on gearing

Postby yappo » Wed Mar 31, 2010 1:42 am

For every 5% increase of that buff you'll gain the entire difference between gemming/chanting full health or picking up all socketbonuses and enchanting for max tank-points. I'm assuming an unbuffed health of 40k.

Thus you're currently 2k health better off today compared to the max-stamina tank before the buffing started. Arguably the normal mode content was perfectly tankable back then.

Your raiding situation looks very similar to mine. Basically pugging ICC, even though I guess you expect to recognize almost half the raid on a 10-man and maybe 7 - 10 people on a 25-man. If this is true I'd expect the ICC buff to have a HUGE impact -- on non-tanks. If you always wiped on 10% you should now have a decent chance to kill it at the same time as the raid wipes, next buff 15%, etc, etc. (Yes, I know it's a simplified exxageration).

Looking at your gear I very much doubt you're wiping in ICC because you die as tank. I guess that you die AFTER the wipe is already a fact, just as I do, in which case tank-death is no issue.
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Re: ICC Buff - Impact on gearing

Postby Boyfriend » Wed Mar 31, 2010 2:24 am

Ginga-uk wrote:So I'm not hard mode material... or at least not in the guild I am currently in, given our more casual bias, however I follow the discussions on things like Effective health, and the ICC buff has got me wondering.

10% is pretty big. Even at my modest gear levels that's another 4 or 5k health. Which is probably in the same sort of realms as the sort of boost you get from stam gearing as opposed to matching for reasonable socket bonuses.

So the question is this. How big does the buff need to be before you decide that you are now above or well above the EH requirement, and in fact you'd now be better served by moving your gemming/enchanting strategy back to avoidance. Of course the answer will depend on your current gear levels as well, but i'm hoping for more discussion that just "it depends..."

On a personal level, since I am can't commit to enough evenings to be in a guild that regularly tries hard modes I havn't gemmed just for Stam, and I have 9 non-blue gems. Excluding the 1 I need for the meta that's potentially 120 stam I am missing out on. Add in a shoulder enchant, and more health on chest (vs +10 stats). we come to a total of about 2k health (perhaps less looking at socket bonuses). For that I instead have 50 Agility, 55 def rating, and 20 dodge rating. Given that the 10% more than covers the stam deficit, am I helping my healers more with the ~2% more avoidance (guestimate no maths done here)

This is me if anyone is interested, although the question is really meant as a generalisation as opposed to being about me.

http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet ... g&cn=ginga


I'd say, in ICC the buff as a whole increases the value of Armor compared to Stamina, sincce it is a combined EH/Damage Reduction stat, and it makes me more likely to use more armor trinkets.

I am however not a fan of avoidance in ICC due to Icecrown Radiance. I see you are currently using 2 Stamina Trinkets, with the 10% buff I'd definately drop one for an Armor Trinket (Triumph Badge one if you don't have Putricide-10 one), I would not consider regemming for more avoidance (even at a very low opportunity cost) until you're already using 2 armor trinkets and feel you still have more health than needed.

Don't forget that healing is also boosted, so the chance that you're dying due to trickle down deaths is also reduced (healing is more likely to keep up) thus also lessening the use of avoidance.

[Edit: Hi to fellow Kilroggian!]
Last edited by Boyfriend on Wed Mar 31, 2010 2:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ICC Buff - Impact on gearing

Postby Barathorn » Wed Mar 31, 2010 2:29 am

yappo wrote:Looking at your gear I very much doubt you're wiping in ICC because you die as tank. I guess that you die AFTER the wipe is already a fact, just as I do, in which case tank-death is no issue.


I completely agree with this. Tank death is rarely an issue for us also, the tanks die when the DPS/healers are unable to stay alive and a wipe becomes a certainty.

I personally intend to continue gearing for EH as the buffs come in and when I am at a level I am comfortable with then I would imagine I will overgear the content anyway and so the buffs will simply be an added bonus.

However to decide when the exact moment is that we 'could' change from EH gearing to Threat/Avoidance gearing is something that is probably easily calculated for 10 man ICC normal as the gear set is pretty much standardised for the majority of us. I am not so sure that is the case for 25 man so that may be more difficult to calculate.

Good question Ginga-UK.

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Re: ICC Buff - Impact on gearing

Postby ginga-uk » Wed Mar 31, 2010 4:16 am

Some interesting responses already. Just to restate, I'm trying to avoid asking about me. However since it has come up, my guild is predominantly casual. We raid usually twice a week, and our schedule still includes both ToC and Ulduar (still not downed Yogg). We have just changed our schedule to make ICC a once per week raid, so we are well behind most. In terms of progress as a guild. We killed festergut for the first time last Thu (with at least 2 whole seconds to spare). Yes I occasioanly go there on pugs, although my experience of 25m pugs in ICC is that after 2-3 wipes on deathwhisper, the pug splits apart... :(. I have a few options on my gear, and like most tanks have a whole collection of different trinkets for avoidance, armor (245 badge), stam. The dual stam I'm sporting on the armory currently is because in a pug your a good tank if you have more hp, so that's probably the last outfitter button I clicked. (or at least most pug raid leaders seem to think).

Certainly in guild runs tank death is rarely an issue, indeed it's pretty uncommon for AD to proc, so I guess I'm going to continue matching sockets while the socket bonus is pretty good. I'm still a few frosts short of the cat chest, and not rich enough for the pillars on legs yet....Although I did get a lucky drop from marrowgar-25 yesterday that I've not gemmed/enchanted yet :(
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Re: ICC Buff - Impact on gearing

Postby Wrathy » Wed Mar 31, 2010 8:28 am

If you are looking for generalizations, here is what I can offer. With the 10% buff, normal mode ICC25 survival is much easier to attain for most tanks. Currently in Normal Mode ICC, there are very few encounters where the tanks life is threatened. With that being said, you should be gearing for fights such as Festergut three inhale, and at a later time, Lich King. What this means is that you want to get your effective health to the point where you can survive back to back hits. To do this, it takes a good deal of stamina and armor (how much i do not recall as I have not done normal mode in a while).

However, due to the fact that you have basically 5k more hp, you have negated the necessity to gear maximum effective health. Most end game tanks min/max and we disucss that here, however with the ability to min/max via the zone wide buff, you can gear more to allow for other preferences and still ensure survival. What that means to me, based off of previous discussions is that armor is still king. As your stamina increases, so does the relative value of armor.

On the other hand, avoidance is suffering from very steep diminishing returns currently even though you are probably in the 40-50% avoidance range in ICC after chill of the throne, you are still sitting in the DR range for a tank who has their true avoidance of 60-70% avoidance. This means that the relative gain of avoidance that you will be getting from gems is very very low. Agility is a beneficial stat to gear for because of its armor and threat compnent, as you are no where near the tipping point of 42k (where dodge>agi). In the end, as long as you are not the cause of a wipe, you are more than likely above the effective health minimum for the encounter, and as such have the flexibility in gemming and enchanting.
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Re: ICC Buff - Impact on gearing

Postby cds4850 » Wed Mar 31, 2010 8:40 am

After seeing my healthpool at 71k HP (buffed, flasked, equipped Key and proc'ing 258Juggernaut's) in our ICC25 last night, I got to thinking about this myself. Wrathy goes into this a bit in his most recent blog post as well: reaching the EH minimum for encounters and reconsidering +9 and +6 socket bonuses.
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Re: ICC Buff - Impact on gearing

Postby Meloree » Wed Mar 31, 2010 9:59 am

Honestly, if you were just starting hardmodes this week, I'd definitely be picking up +9 socket bonuses, and strongly considering +6s, for agi/stam and def/stam hybrids. Up until LK, it isn't really a bursty "EH-check" instance. Stam-stacking won't hurt you - it's what everyone else did for progression through there - but you have the opportunity to be a little bit more efficient. If you're working on LKHM - I don't know that there's a real consensus yet, and I haven't done enough pulls to be totally sure, but I'm pretty much leaning on stamina right now.
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Re: ICC Buff - Impact on gearing

Postby Fridmarr » Wed Mar 31, 2010 10:04 am

Yeah, with current health pools, damage reduction just gets stronger and stronger.
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Re: ICC Buff - Impact on gearing

Postby Barathorn » Thu Apr 01, 2010 12:47 am

Meloree wrote:Honestly, if you were just starting hardmodes this week, I'd definitely be picking up +9 socket bonuses, and strongly considering +6s, for agi/stam and def/stam hybrids. Up until LK, it isn't really a bursty "EH-check" instance. Stam-stacking won't hurt you - it's what everyone else did for progression through there - but you have the opportunity to be a little bit more efficient.


What about for those of us still doing 10 man normal ICC. Would you consider it viable now with the buff to start picking up +6 and +9 stamina socket bonuses if it can be done using agility/stamina hybrid gems? Ie :- can I drop 2-4k health and allow the buff to pick it back up for me
while looking at agility/stam gems? My own plan was to get to 40k unbuffed health before considering this but can we now look at this as a viable strategy from say 36k?

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Re: ICC Buff - Impact on gearing

Postby Meloree » Thu Apr 01, 2010 1:32 am

Barathorn wrote:
Meloree wrote:Honestly, if you were just starting hardmodes this week, I'd definitely be picking up +9 socket bonuses, and strongly considering +6s, for agi/stam and def/stam hybrids. Up until LK, it isn't really a bursty "EH-check" instance. Stam-stacking won't hurt you - it's what everyone else did for progression through there - but you have the opportunity to be a little bit more efficient.


What about for those of us still doing 10 man normal ICC. Would you consider it viable now with the buff to start picking up +6 and +9 stamina socket bonuses if it can be done using agility/stamina hybrid gems? Ie :- can I drop 2-4k health and allow the buff to pick it back up for me
while looking at agility/stam gems? My own plan was to get to 40k unbuffed health before considering this but can we now look at this as a viable strategy from say 36k?

Barathorn


My advice on the subject is probably not as good as someone more familiar with doing the content in relevant gear could provide, but my gut instinct would be to say yes, pick up bonuses. Turn them into avoidance or DPS as you choose, but health isn't really a gamechanger for tanks in ICC, as far as I can tell. That said, I've never done ICC10 in anything approaching content appropriate gear - either for myself or the raid I'm with.
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Re: ICC Buff - Impact on gearing

Postby yappo » Thu Apr 01, 2010 3:52 am

Barathorn wrote: Ie :- can I drop 2-4k health
Barathorn


Jumping in here.

I had to some calculations in a (by now dead) thread were I was rambling about 'tank-points' versus max health gemming/chanting. Using my current gear, where I've picked up every socket bonus possibly through hybrid gems, and chanting agility on cloak/hands, defence on shield, powerful stats on chest and Hodir chant on shoulders, I came to a conversion-point of around 200 stamina. I did this by converting armour and health to stamina whenever the BiS chant wasn't pure stamina.

The end result was, if I recall correctly, some 2200 health lost. If we leave pure non-blue gems aside, this should pretty much be the maximum health-loss you could inflict on yourself picking up whatever you probably don't need :D

I now stand at 41k+ health unbuffed with stamina/armour trinket, and I definitely consider myself an ICC-10 (normal) tank, because the few ICC 25 runs I join inevitably crash and burn horribly on Saurfang. In case of stamina-emergency I can slot in my Brewfest trinket for another 170 stamina, so I guess I'd qualify as a 43k unbuffed tank if need be. (I'd drop from 33 to 31k armour doing so)

Now a question I believe I share with Barathorn: What, exactly, in ICC-10 normal would be a danger to me with 10% buffed everything?
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Re: ICC Buff - Impact on gearing

Postby lythac » Thu Apr 01, 2010 4:56 am

yappo wrote:Now a question I believe I share with Barathorn: What, exactly, in ICC-10 normal would be a danger to me with 10% buffed everything?


At your gear levels If your healers are super amazing and your raid is awesome with CDs probably nothing.

If not -

Sindragosa solo tanking
LK
Blood Prince (tanking 2 princes)

So really just LK as the other 2 you may not choose to do. Although solo tanking Sindragosa removed a lot of frustration for my guild (with 0/5% buff).
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Re: ICC Buff - Impact on gearing

Postby knaughty » Fri Apr 02, 2010 1:07 am

I've always picked up +12 bonuses, and almost always collected +9. Definitely gemmed +9 stam stam bonuses at 5%. Hadn't considered going for +6 stam yet.

Part of the reason for still liking hybrid def/stam gems is that there's a lot of very low defence gear in my "best" set. Ran into an issue last week where I couldn't use "Last Word" because I dropped to 535 defence, had to swap back to Ogrim's Deflector for bosses (kept Last Word for trash).
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Re: ICC Buff - Impact on gearing

Postby Wrathy » Fri Apr 02, 2010 10:27 am

Just in case you are curious, I looked into swapping out gems for a holistic approach. The buff in and of it self covers the loss of stamina, so if you were not dying before the 10% buff went active, you can ensure more avoidance, or threat, and still have a similar health pool.

More info on my blog post today with chardev references and everything...

And, bara, sorry but I am with mel on this one, my view of 10 man is probably too skewed to give you an accurate answer, however with the availability of the 264 non tier pieces for 10 man raiders, you guys should be doing quite a bit better than any previous patch. I have tanked the hard modes in my threat set (with out any stam trinkets or tank rings either, 39k hp 28k armor unbuffed) and survived just fine, so I would like to say that the gear available to you is more than enough to be able to pick up any bonus, but I am not positive because it is not something I have experienced.
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