Which pieces for the (264)T10 2-piece bonus?

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Re: Which pieces for the (264)T10 2-piece bonus?

Postby Awyndel » Thu Mar 18, 2010 6:48 am

theckhd wrote:In your progression set, you will want to use all of the +armor pieces and probably the tier helm. That locks you out of almost all of the big hit items (helm/chest/legs).


See this is what I don't understand. For an ilevel 277 setup I strongly disagree with undervaluing the off set helmet. Asuming one takes the chest and the gloves for the armor, the hit on the helmet would only cost a few stamina.
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Re: Which pieces for the (264)T10 2-piece bonus?

Postby jere » Thu Mar 18, 2010 7:07 am

Awyndel wrote:Basicly what bothers me the most about these sort of discussions, Is that some ppl sacrifice a lot of health and armor for a worthless 4 set bonus, or for some hit or expertise. On the other hand I wonder why ppl won't sacrifice some avoidance for them instead. Maybe I'm just in between those ppl :P .

Considering our other discussion on the uptime for Vindication (and how it has gone down in some cases), I am actually taking a better look at hit and expertise. I don't know if it is enough to sacrifice health yet, but then there isn't a definitive answer on how much of an impact those stats make on the uptime yet. I am with you though and would gladly give up avoidance for them, at least at this point.
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Re: Which pieces for the (264)T10 2-piece bonus?

Postby Trase » Thu Mar 18, 2010 7:34 am

I wouldn't discount our T10 4 piece so heavily. In a 25 man raid, that bonus completely negates the effect of CotT for me for 10 seconds. Basically, it makes Holy Shield alone block cap me again and every swing on me is either avoided or partially blocked for 10 seconds.

EDIT: Maybe at the 264 level with access to 277 offset pieces but not 277 tier pieces I would have a slightly different opinion of the bonus.
EDIT2: Deliverance is only 10 seconds, not 12. Also edited for clarity since it was a little vague.
Last edited by Trase on Thu Mar 18, 2010 7:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Which pieces for the (264)T10 2-piece bonus?

Postby theckhd » Thu Mar 18, 2010 7:48 am

Awyndel wrote:
theckhd wrote:In your progression set, you will want to use all of the +armor pieces and probably the tier helm. That locks you out of almost all of the big hit items (helm/chest/legs).


See this is what I don't understand. For an ilevel 277 setup I strongly disagree with undervaluing the off set helmet. Asuming one takes the chest and the gloves for the armor, the hit on the helmet would only cost a few stamina.

If you are considering the helm all by itself, it's a reasonable trade if you want the hit (30ish avoidance and 4 stam for around 80 hit). At the 277 level, swapping the helm in for the tier is reasonable, because you might be using the tier chest and gloves.

However, at the 264 level (which is what most of us would call a "progression" gear set) you're probably using the Cat. So you're basically choosing two of [Helm, Shoulders, Gloves] to pick up the 2-piece bonus. The tier helm actually nets you stamina rather than costing it, so it's a 22 stam differential to use the off-set helm and pick up your 2-piece with shoulders/gloves.

Also, depending on your other gear you might have trouble maintaining 540 defense with the tier chest and pillars. At the 264 level, it's a serious concern, at 277 it may be less so since you might have other 277 gear to help cover the gap.
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Re: Which pieces for the (264)T10 2-piece bonus?

Postby theckhd » Thu Mar 18, 2010 7:51 am

Trase wrote:In a 25 man raid, that bonus completely negates the effect of CotT for me.

CotT is only -12% for 10 seconds out of every minute on your server? Man, I want to transfer there! On mine it's -20% and it's up all the time.

<edit> More seriously, it's very hard to keep 540 defense using tier chest + pillars if all you have is 264-ilvl items. Once you have some 277 pieces it becomes much less difficult, and gives you more leeway to swap gear around for different fights.

There's no doubt that the 4-piece is a nice avoidance cooldown, it's just not really good enough to micromanage defense for at the 264 level.
Last edited by theckhd on Thu Mar 18, 2010 7:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Which pieces for the (264)T10 2-piece bonus?

Postby Trase » Thu Mar 18, 2010 7:55 am

theckhd wrote:
Trase wrote:In a 25 man raid, that bonus completely negates the effect of CotT for me.

CotT is only -12% for 10 seconds out of every minute on your server? Man, I want to transfer there! On mine it's -20% and it's up all the time.


:P You misunderstand my statement.

Yes, CotT is -20% dodge, but remember that with Holy Shield we were pretty far over block cap. I am about 9% over block cap fully raid buffed outside of ICC. Deliverance (4pc T10) puts me back at block cap even with CotT effectively negating it for my concerns.
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Re: Which pieces for the (264)T10 2-piece bonus?

Postby theckhd » Thu Mar 18, 2010 8:00 am

Trase wrote::P You misunderstand my statement.

Yes, CotT is -20% dodge, but remember that with Holy Shield we were pretty far over block cap. I am about 9% over block cap fully raid buffed outside of ICC. Deliverance (4pc T10) puts me back at block cap even with CotT effectively negating it for my concerns.

Not being block-capped isn't the main problem with CotT though. The bigger issue is the net DTPS increase it causes and the relative increase in back-to-back-to-back melee hits. Having an extra 10% mitigation (2k block on a ~20k hit) is certainly nice, but again you're only getting it for 10 seconds out of every minute. It does make it a slightly better cooldown though.
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Re: Which pieces for the (264)T10 2-piece bonus?

Postby Trase » Thu Mar 18, 2010 8:04 am

theckhd wrote:
Trase wrote::P You misunderstand my statement.

Yes, CotT is -20% dodge, but remember that with Holy Shield we were pretty far over block cap. I am about 9% over block cap fully raid buffed outside of ICC. Deliverance (4pc T10) puts me back at block cap even with CotT effectively negating it for my concerns.

Not being block-capped isn't the main problem with CotT though. The bigger issue is the net DTPS increase it causes and the relative increase in back-to-back-to-back melee hits. Having an extra 10% mitigation (2k block on a ~20k hit) is certainly nice, but again you're only getting it for 10 seconds out of every minute. It does make it a slightly better cooldown though.


My point was more that dismissing it as worthless is rather rash. It may not be a direct "you take x% less damage" effect, but it does do something similar in effect against melee strikes.
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Re: Which pieces for the (264)T10 2-piece bonus?

Postby theckhd » Thu Mar 18, 2010 8:24 am

Trase wrote:My point was more that dismissing it as worthless is rather rash. It may not be a direct "you take x% less damage" effect, but it does do something similar in effect against melee strikes.

Oh sure, I wouldn't call it worthless. It's actually a pretty potent cooldown as far as average DTPS is concerned. It's just not a very reliable one. I'd much rather have a DR cooldown, even if it was only for physical attacks. And I'd much rather it wasn't tied to DP (it would be less cumbersome if DP lasted 30 seconds inherently).

But I still plan on picking up the 4-piece at the 277 level, provided we get there. It's just not crucial at the 264 level, and in my opinion not worth the headache of juggling gear to keep at 540. Keep in mind that I like tanking with Last Word too, which costs me a chunk of defense. Similar issues arise when swapping to a slow 2.6-speed DPS weapon. I like not having to rely on the defense from my weapon to stay uncrittable, since the weapon slot is an easy way to make large swings in threat output.
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Re: Which pieces for the (264)T10 2-piece bonus?

Postby halabar » Thu Mar 18, 2010 8:43 am

The answer here is likely just dependent on your gearing path as well. Right now, I'm at:

251 tier helm, 251 tier shoulders; badge chest, cloak, belt, gloves and trink; 264 crafted legs; 245 boots, 232 neck, and 251 shield and mace.

Since ICC has come out, I've seen 4 tanking drops total.

So if your luck sucks like mine, your tier 2-pc is head+shoulders. Theck makes a good case for the gloves being an option as well, which I'll consider if I ever see the DW helm, Gunship shoulders, or gloves from VoA25, but I really don't think these things exist.

So my point is, the helm/shoulders is a good path to recommend for 2pc-tier10, since it doesn't keep people from filling the other slots with very good badge gear. If you've gotten lucky with drops, then there are choices.
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Re: Which pieces for the (264)T10 2-piece bonus?

Postby Awyndel » Fri Mar 19, 2010 8:14 am

theckhd wrote:If you are considering the helm all by itself, it's a reasonable trade if you want the hit (30ish avoidance and 4 stam for around 80 hit). At the 277 level, swapping the helm in for the tier is reasonable, because you might be using the tier chest and gloves.

However, at the 264 level (which is what most of us would call a "progression" gear set) you're probably using the Cat. So you're basically choosing two of [Helm, Shoulders, Gloves] to pick up the 2-piece bonus. The tier helm actually nets you stamina rather than costing it, so it's a 22 stam differential to use the off-set helm and pick up your 2-piece with shoulders/gloves.

Also, depending on your other gear you might have trouble maintaining 540 defense with the tier chest and pillars. At the 264 level, it's a serious concern, at 277 it may be less so since you might have other 277 gear to help cover the gap.


As I explained above, I intend using the gloves and helmet for 264, and the chest and gloves for 277 for those exact reasons.

As for the defence problem, you can use the pillars and the tier chest, and even last word. The off set helmet has a lof of defence on itself, making this trade a lot easier. If you are slightly short the boots from valithria will close the gap. Remember the shoulder enchant makes the minimum a bit lower, and I wouldn't be too bothered picking up one yellow 9 stam socket for this setup either. But for my current gear, the helmet alone would actually already fix my defence to 537.

Changing the subject. For expertise the glyph, the boots and an exp/stam gem would put you at 24 expertise, not too bad for this setup imo. And with the hit from the gloves, helmet and a weapon enchant you would have 179 hit, not too bad either.

As for the vindication uptime. I don't think you can make the uptime 99% by gear choices. I think you need another paladin or tank helping you out there anyway. So I don't see the point of giving up armor for that.

Judgement of the just uptime would be slightly more important, but that's a similar issue. I think we rely a little more on the other tank doing that for us to garantuee a good uptime. I could be wrong.
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Re: Which pieces for the (264)T10 2-piece bonus?

Postby Kihra » Mon Mar 22, 2010 10:03 am

Awyndel wrote:
theckhd wrote:If you are considering the helm all by itself, it's a reasonable trade if you want the hit (30ish avoidance and 4 stam for around 80 hit). At the 277 level, swapping the helm in for the tier is reasonable, because you might be using the tier chest and gloves.

However, at the 264 level (which is what most of us would call a "progression" gear set) you're probably using the Cat. So you're basically choosing two of [Helm, Shoulders, Gloves] to pick up the 2-piece bonus. The tier helm actually nets you stamina rather than costing it, so it's a 22 stam differential to use the off-set helm and pick up your 2-piece with shoulders/gloves.

Also, depending on your other gear you might have trouble maintaining 540 defense with the tier chest and pillars. At the 264 level, it's a serious concern, at 277 it may be less so since you might have other 277 gear to help cover the gap.


As I explained above, I intend using the gloves and helmet for 264, and the chest and gloves for 277 for those exact reasons.

As for the defence problem, you can use the pillars and the tier chest, and even last word. The off set helmet has a lof of defence on itself, making this trade a lot easier. If you are slightly short the boots from valithria will close the gap. Remember the shoulder enchant makes the minimum a bit lower, and I wouldn't be too bothered picking up one yellow 9 stam socket for this setup either. But for my current gear, the helmet alone would actually already fix my defence to 537.

Changing the subject. For expertise the glyph, the boots and an exp/stam gem would put you at 24 expertise, not too bad for this setup imo. And with the hit from the gloves, helmet and a weapon enchant you would have 179 hit, not too bad either.

As for the vindication uptime. I don't think you can make the uptime 99% by gear choices. I think you need another paladin or tank helping you out there anyway. So I don't see the point of giving up armor for that.

Judgement of the just uptime would be slightly more important, but that's a similar issue. I think we rely a little more on the other tank doing that for us to garantuee a good uptime. I could be wrong.


I am also of the opinion that at the 277 ilvl the chest/gloves are the pieces you want. Keep in mind that 12 other people in the guild share my token though, and only two 277 marks are being reserved for tanks. Therefore I have to build my gear plan assuming I will never see more than two 277 marks.

I plan on wearing the following at the 277 level:

Broken Ram Skull Helm
Bile-Encrusted Medallion
Boneguard Commander's Pauldrons
Sentinel's Winter Cloak
Tier Chest
Gargoyle Spit Bracers
Tier Gloves
Verdigris Chain Belt
Pillars of Might
Grinning Skull Greatboots
Ashen Band of I'm Exalted
Devium's Eternally Cold Ring
Icecrown Glacial Wall
Last Word / Bloodvenom Blade

The way I see it, 3 out of 5 of the tier pieces are BiS for EH: helm, chest and gloves. I lose the least amount of EH switching the helm to the offset, and I get hit capped by doing so. What I like about this set is it is hit capped, exp capped (if you eat exp food or are human) and still super high EH.
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Re: Which pieces for the (264)T10 2-piece bonus?

Postby Awyndel » Mon Mar 22, 2010 10:43 am

Pretty much that, but I'm keeping the 245 heroic armor ring instead of the rep one. I'm not too bothered with capping hit or expertise when it costs me armor. If i can give up some avoidance for some cheap stats then sure, but I'm not bothered with caps atm.
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Re: Which pieces for the (264)T10 2-piece bonus?

Postby Narsill » Thu Mar 25, 2010 9:18 pm

My guild was on meant to be running 10 man so I opted to get the tier head + shoulders first as the badge chest and gloves along with the crafted legs were going to be a lot better than anything I could have picked up in 10 man as we progressed through normal.

Then our DK decided that he wanted a Shadow's edge and ended up spam recruiting moving us from a realm 2nd 10man strict to a realm 11th or there abouts 25man...sorry for going off topic, it's a sore subject for 9 of us.

Anyway my point being is that people should really take in what drops are going to be available to them before just running out and grabbing 2 pieces, I will presume that anyone solely running 10 man will lean the way that I did, where someone who is going though 10 and 25 might opt for the tier chest and use the valithria boots and facelifter to cap exp leaving them more open to the other slot non tier pieces such as the Lootship shoulders or Lady Helm.
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Re: Which pieces for the (264)T10 2-piece bonus?

Postby Wrathy » Fri Mar 26, 2010 8:29 am

Narsill wrote:My guild was on meant to be running 10 man so I opted to get the tier head + shoulders first as the badge chest and gloves along with the crafted legs were going to be a lot better than anything I could have picked up in 10 man as we progressed through normal.

Anyway my point being is that people should really take in what drops are going to be available to them before just running out and grabbing 2 pieces, I will presume that anyone solely running 10 man will lean the way that I did, where someone who is going though 10 and 25 might opt for the tier chest and use the valithria boots and facelifter to cap exp leaving them more open to the other slot non tier pieces such as the Lootship shoulders or Lady Helm.


Honestly most 25 man raiders should be going for the Tier Helm and Shoulders at the 264 level, as the gunship shoulders only offer a bit more hp, and the expertise on the Cata chest is invaluable to get to that hard cap when you start dropping it off your ToTC gear for the badge gear.

I personally went with the Cata chest and shoulders helm tier option until i got to the T10 277 level.
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