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Which pieces for the (264)T10 2-piece bonus?

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Which pieces for the (264)T10 2-piece bonus?

Postby tbolt » Sat Mar 13, 2010 5:00 pm

Hi, I'm considering picking up the 2pc bonus for tier 10 at the 264 level but I'm not sure which two would be the best to get in comparison to their available alternatives (which I have access to). I read the 25 man guide that Meloree posted but that one seems to include a great deal of 277 items and I'm only looking for the 264 comparisons. So I figured I'd let you know what I have access to relative to the 264 T10 and see what the forum gods decide.

Head
Broken Ram Skull Helm http://www.wowhead.com/?item=49986 versus http://www.wowhead.com/?item=51173

Shoulders
Boneguard Commander's Pauldrons http://www.wowhead.com/?item=50003 versus http://www.wowhead.com/?item=51170

Chest
the "Cat" http://www.wowhead.com/?item=50968 versus http://www.wowhead.com/?item=51174

Gloves
Gauntlets of the Kraken http://www.wowhead.com/?item=50978 versus http://www.wowhead.com/?item=51172

Legs
Pillars of Might http://www.wowhead.com/?item=49904 versus http://www.wowhead.com/?item=51171

As it stands I'm thinking my best bet would be picking up the tier helm and the shoulders and using the listed offsets for the rest but there is a lot of expertise on those tier legs. I feel pretty good about my survival currently which is why I'm trying to go for the two piece and maybe pick up more expertise in order to augment my threat. Thanks.
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Re: Which pieces for the (264)T10 2-piece bonus?

Postby silkforcalde » Sat Mar 13, 2010 5:17 pm

I currently use the 4 piece and I am using helm, chest, legs, and gloves.

If I were to use the 2 piece it'd probably be legs and gloves, unless the hit on the gloves was wasted and then I'd go for helm.

I personally think the legs are really nice because of the expertise, and I've had a very hard time with expertise in ICC.
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Re: Which pieces for the (264)T10 2-piece bonus?

Postby Alanyor » Sat Mar 13, 2010 11:39 pm

Pillars of Might is better than 277 T10 in my opinion, but definitely better than 264 T10.

I wouldn't use any of the tier gear without 277 chances, but if you want some, get shoulders/hands or shoulders/head.

Pillars of Might are godlike, Cataclysmic adds the 10 Expertise you need from gear, for the rest I would prefer ramskull helm.
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Re: Which pieces for the (264)T10 2-piece bonus?

Postby fuzzygeek » Sun Mar 14, 2010 7:14 am

silkforcalde wrote:I personally think the legs are really nice because of the expertise, and I've had a very hard time with expertise in ICC.


That's probably because you've opted for 4pc. The Cataclysmic chestguard would softcap expertise alone. Alternately, the facelifter+dreamwalker boots would serve just as well.

Also, seconding hat/shoulders for 2pc. shoulders/hands if you have the LDW hat, perhaps.
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Re: Which pieces for the (264)T10 2-piece bonus?

Postby excalibrax » Sun Mar 14, 2010 1:42 pm

This is not Easy to find, But Theck did an excellant Writeup that May need to be stickied about this very question Burried Deep in a thread
Theck's Analysis of Tier items through Opportunity Cost
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Re: Which pieces for the (264)T10 2-piece bonus?

Postby Rhiannon » Mon Mar 15, 2010 4:45 am

excalibrax wrote:This is not Easy to find, But Theck did an excellant Writeup that May need to be stickied about this very question Burried Deep in a thread
Theck's Analysis of Tier items through Opportunity Cost


Be careful, that analysis is out of date now as the tier chest and gloves received bonus armor at the expense of avoidance since that was written.
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Re: Which pieces for the (264)T10 2-piece bonus?

Postby theckhd » Mon Mar 15, 2010 6:55 am

That's easy enough to fix. Here's a repost with the numbers and commentary updated:

Let's take each item, and compare it to its equal-ilvl tier equivalent. Instead of listing all the stats on Cataclysmic Chestguard, we list them as compared to Sanctified Lightsworn Chestguard:

Code: Select all
Item                     STA      Armor     Avoid   STR   Hit  EXP     Av/St Ratio
Cataclysmic Chestguard    18     -14 (-1)    -46   -39    0    82      2.7

In other words, by 'upgrading' from T10.264 to Cataclysmic, you gain 18 stam, and 82 expertise, but lose 131 total avoidance rating (def + dodge + parry), 1 "effective stamina" worth of Armor (at a 10:1 conversion ratio), and 39 strength.

The avoidance gain per stamina ratio is as Meloree and I calculated it in the Progression MT Gearing thread, or in Digren's guide. For those unfamiliar, it's the ratio of avoidance lost to effective stamina gained by trading one item for another. In this case, we lose 46 avoidance and gain 18-1=17 stamina by "upgrading" the T10 chest to Cataclysmic, for a ratio of 46/(18-1) = 2.7.

In general, the lower this ratio, the "better" the trade for stamina - if you could trade 10 avoidance for 100 stamina (ratio of 0.1), you'd probably do it. If you had to trade 100 avoidance for 10 stamina (ratio of 10.0), you probably wouldn't.

Most progression tanks make gem choices at ratios of around 1.5-2.0 (i.e., if the ratio is less than that, it's a "good" trade and they take it).

We can repeat this for all of the items of interest. I'm assuming 30 stam gems in every socket.

264-ilvl baseline:
Code: Select all
Item  (264)              STA      Armor     Avoid   STR   Hit   EXP     Av/St Ratio (lower is better)
Broken Ram Skull Helm     -4       0 (0)      -31   -39    74     0       ----

Boneguard Commander's P.  18       0 (0)       -8     0     0     0      0.4444

Cataclysmic Chestguard    18     -14 (-1)     -46   -39     0    82      2.7
Blightborne Warplate      18   -1190 (-119)    62   -39    58     0      0.6

Gauntlets of the Kraken   18       0 (0)       31    28   -61     0      ---
Taldaram's Plated Fists   18   -1008 (-101)    93    28   -61     0      1.1

Pillars of Might          18    1190 (108)    -54   +39     0   -82      0.4286
Legguards of Lost Hope    18       0 (0)        0     0    74   -82      0
Deathforged Legplates(H)  18       0 (0)       16     0     0   -24      ---


277-ilvl baseline:
Code: Select all
Item  (277)              STA      Armor     Avoid   STR   Hit   EXP
Broken Ram Skull Helm     -4       0 (0)      -36   -44    85     0      ---

Boneguard Commander's P.  18       0 (0)       -8     0     0     0      0.4444

Cataclysmic Chestguard   -14    -283 (-28)    -68   -60     0    82      ---
Blightborne Warplate      18   -1344 (-134)    68   -44    69     0      0.6
   
Gauntlets of the Kraken   -5    -213 (-21)     21    17   -69     0      0.8
Taldaram's Plated Fists   18   -1148 (-115)   107    33   -69     0      1.1

Pillars of Might         -14    1088 (99)     -82   +23     0   -93      0.9647
Legguards of Lost Hope    18       0 (0)        0     0    85   -93      0


The results here are a bit surprising, actually. Let's look at each in detail.

------

Helm: (no change) The helm is a no-brainer, you're trading survivability (both stam and avoidance) for threat (hit) by using the off-set item. If you're near the hit cap from other gear, the helm becomes even less of an upgrade. So the helm is easily a BiS item, and should form the foundation of any ideal gear set-up for progression.

Shoulders: (no change) I've heard over and over that the Boneguard Commander's Pauldrons had more stamina than the tier piece, and thus were the better choice. But all of the off-set items have more stamina. What makes the shoulders great is that they sacrifice the least amount of other stats to get that 18 stam.

On the other hand, since they're almost identical, it makes this a very simple trade to make. It's 18 stamina for 8 parry rating and a set bonus. In addition, there's no armor piece for the shoulder slot. This makes T10 shoulders a reasonably strong contender for the second piece despite the weak trade ratio, since it's versatile.

Chest: This surprised me as well, but for a different reason. Blightborne Warplate is a hit item, but you sacrifice enough STR for it that it's only a weak upgrade in total threat. It's also got the highest avoidance/stam trade ratios of any of the off-set items. No reason to use Blightborne outside of convenience (i.e. if you get it, you can use your badges on other slots to gear up faster).

(NEW) Cataclysmic was originally a huge trade of avoidance for armor. The change to the tier chest reverses that slightly - it's now a trade of a chunk of avoidance for a tiny amount of stam. The avoidance cost is pretty steep at 2.7, above the ratio most tanks would consider for pure stamina trades. At the 277 level, it's now a flat-out EH loss in both stam and armor.

The saving grace is that the 82 expertise is enough to get you to soft-cap single-handedly, and it has defense on it. This is really what this slot will come down to, I think. There are two things that are pretty hard to find on T10 gear: defense and expertise, and "the Cat" has you covered in both departments. Since the crafted pieces also lack defense, you may be forced into using the Cat just to maintain uncrittability.

Before the change, this category was a hands-down victory for the Cat; now it's a much closer race, and will really hinge on whether you can find enough expertise and defense on the rest of your gear to wear the tier chest. At the 277 ilvl, it's a flat-out win for the tier chest if you can cover the defense gap.

Gloves: (NEW) Another little surprise here, as each item has its place. The tier item has a good chunk of hit, which makes it nice for threat. With the addition of armor to the tier gloves, the choice between Kraken and 264 tier comes down to 18 stam and 31 avoidance vs 61 hit rating. Since hit is also in short supply, this is a reasonable place to pick it up since the cost is simply 31 avoidance rating after the flat 18 stam penalty you pay for using tier. At the 277 level the tier piece wins hands-down.

Plated Fists are simply a trade-off of about 1k armor for 60-100 avoidance rating. Most people won't find that trade compelling outside of an avoidance set.

Note that out of the three slots where you can stack armor, gloves give you the smallest amount. On the other hand, they're also the best trade-in ratio, and represent the lowest opportunity cost.

Legs: This is another interesting slot. Pillars give you massive EH and some STR, but sacrifice avoidance and expertise to get there. It has an excellent trade ratio at the 264 level and a reasonable one at 277. If you're already soft-capped on expertise, they're roughly threat-neutral.

The Legguards of Lost Hope are basically identical to T10, but trade the expertise for hit. If you're soft-capped on expertise but not hit-capped, this makes them threat positive with no loss of avoidance. This makes the T10 Legs a pretty decent choice if you're not stacking armor in every slot, as it's just a threat trade (hit for expertise + set bonus).

(NEW) As an interesting side note, let's look just at Pillars and Cataclysmic. If you had to choose one of these to replace T10, Pillars is almost hands-down the better choice. It sacrifices slightly more avoidance but gives you significantly more armor, making the opportunity cost much better. Both pieces are roughly threat-neutral provided you're soft-capped without either - the expertise gain from Cataclysmic offsets the STR loss, and the STR gain on Pillars offsets the expertise loss.

Cataclysmic is superior only if:
  1. You're below the expertise soft-cap, in which case it's threat positive, or
  2. You lose uncrittability by using Pillars

Looking back at what I said about "optimum" sets:

Theck wrote:
  • The EH enthusiast - T10 Helm/Shoulders, Cat/Kraken/Pillars for massive Armor. The off-set shoulders can be subbed in if you don't want the set bonus.
  • The Stam enthusiast - T10 Helm/Chest, Boneguard/Taldaram/LostHope. Unconcerned with armor, they pick up the 18 stam bonuses while trading as little avoidance as possible. Possible variant is T10 Helm/Chest + Boneguard/Taldaram/Pillars if they care about armor a little bit.
  • The Avoidance Lover - T10 Helm/Shoulders/Chest/Legs, Taldaram's gloves. Gives you the highest avoidance possible along with the 4-piece bonus.
  • The Tightrope Walker - T10 Helm/Chest + Boneguard/Kraken/Pillars. This guy likes balance, and makes the most efficient ratio trades for armor (Kraken/Pillars)

....

Head/Shoulders/Chest also gives the highest versatility. I can swap from "max EH" with Cat/Kraken/Pillars to a more avoidance-heavy set-up by swapping in Lost Hope and T10 Chest. I can also swap to "max Stam" which uses Head/Chest and 3 drops (or Head/Shoulders and 3 drops).


Now that the gloves are strong contenders, I could see them included in any of these set-ups, making it much easier to pick up the 2-piece bonus. I still think the helm is strong enough to be the centerpiece of all of these sets. But to pick up the set bonus, choosing shoulders or gloves will really come down to what other pieces you have access to or already have.

Chest is now also an option, but in my experience it's hard to use both the tier chest and Pillars without dropping below the defense threshold. Once I have another mark I'll pick it up, but it's going to be tough to make use of it until I get some more defense from 277 gear.

For my personal set-up, I still use Helm/Shoulders most of the time. However, for fights where taunts are important I often use Broken Ram Skull and tier gloves to give me a large bump in hit rating. I've been very tempted to swap the gloves into my primary set for the 2-piece (running Helm/Gloves instead of Helm/Shoulders) just to get a little more reliability on pulls. The trade is 39 avoidance and 28 STR for 61 hit rating, which seems reasonably fair.
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Re: Which pieces for the (264)T10 2-piece bonus?

Postby tbolt » Mon Mar 15, 2010 3:13 pm

Thanks everyone for your input, especially Theck for your valuable analysis, it helped me greatly in my decision making process.
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Re: Which pieces for the (264)T10 2-piece bonus?

Postby lucem » Tue Mar 16, 2010 10:22 am

im considering using the t10 legs to get my 2 piece t10 and maybe dropping the SoV glyph seeing as how i might not need anymore due to the expertise and those legs and my chest.

The shoulders ive always like a lot, but matching the bonus with the legs (i only have 1 lvl 80 so no chance to pay for the pillars) seems good
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Re: Which pieces for the (264)T10 2-piece bonus?

Postby woulacrosse » Tue Mar 16, 2010 2:40 pm

Why would u drop the glyph? Isn't it still the best glyph even if we are over softcap? edit- (considering you already have the divine plea glyph)
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Re: Which pieces for the (264)T10 2-piece bonus?

Postby lucem » Tue Mar 16, 2010 3:51 pm

i was considering getting glyph of hammer of the righteous, but im not sure how this would work. Maybe some of you guys could help me. If this glyph maintans damage on target while adding a new one this would mean a 33% increase in damage from this, plus the 20% extra damage on each target from the t10 bonus.
If this is how i think it is i would consider getting, perhaps someone could verify this?
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Re: Which pieces for the (264)T10 2-piece bonus?

Postby tbolt » Wed Mar 17, 2010 1:49 am

lucem wrote:i was considering getting glyph of hammer of the righteous, but im not sure how this would work. Maybe some of you guys could help me. If this glyph maintans damage on target while adding a new one this would mean a 33% increase in damage from this, plus the 20% extra damage on each target from the t10 bonus.
If this is how i think it is i would consider getting, perhaps someone could verify this?


As far as I know the HotR glyph only lets you hit an extra target like the cleave glyph. So while it will be great for trash situations (hitting one more target on packs), it won't be an increase to your single target damage/threat.
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Re: Which pieces for the (264)T10 2-piece bonus?

Postby Ulrik » Wed Mar 17, 2010 11:04 am

I'd say since there's only two shoulder options it's hard to go wrong there picking that as one. Helm as said above is solid unless you want or need hit. Gloves are nice. I'm super paranoid and use legs/gloves.

I highly disagree with Theckht's statement "Since hit is also in short supply...". ICC is overflowing.

I'm gearing two sets at the moment. One is very high hit/expert with Broken Ram helm, Blightborne Chest, T10(264) glove, etc. along with many expert. items, T9(258) shoulder, 258 back, T10(277) legs. This is the threat paranoid / gimmic fight / many adds / boss is a joke set.

The other set is all Armor for Armor's sake. Get highest armor in each slot, and if no boosted item exists then highest stam. -I'm rethinking on T10 gloves for that now though.

I'm not keen on mixing armor with threat. If there's a fight so bad you want the armor why not go the whole way. I haven't encountered (Heroic 8/12 ICC 25) anything that in my mind has needed a mix. It's either pew pew threat or "he hits hard DAMN". Never needed threat help on those more pointy guys.

I'm also so annoyed that our T10 x4 is so different and IMO so bad compared to the flat damage reduction of the other tanks that I've removed it from consideration. I'm not sure why anyone want it. I suppose it's something rather then nothing. I also suppose there's some thread giving an estimated comparison on all the tank T10 x4 that someone could link. But as it's been pointed out that even if you went T10 x4 with Pillar legs that's a hell of a defence loss to make up.
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Re: Which pieces for the (264)T10 2-piece bonus?

Postby theckhd » Wed Mar 17, 2010 12:48 pm

Ulrik wrote:I highly disagree with Theckht's statement "Since hit is also in short supply...". ICC is overflowing.

I guess I should have qualified that statement more. There are a lot of hit rating items in ICC. They're almost all inferior to other options for progression though. In particular, there is only one item that has bonus armor and hit - the tier gloves.

In your progression set, you will want to use all of the +armor pieces and probably the tier helm. That locks you out of almost all of the big hit items (helm/chest/legs). If you look at most "progression-oriented" 264+ item sets, they run with very little hit, and in many cases none at all. At best you might get about 50 from a ring and 25 from your weapon enchant.

This makes the gloves pretty attractive. They have the armor that you want plus a chunk of hit, and sacrifice only a little avoidance and the obligatory 18 stamina to get it. Since you can make up that stamina elsewhere (i.e. shoulders), it's basically a straight-up avoidance for hit trade.
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Re: Which pieces for the (264)T10 2-piece bonus?

Postby Awyndel » Thu Mar 18, 2010 6:41 am

Personally I think armor and health are very important. Exepertise is usually not an issue. But since avoidance is a lot weaker now, and hit is hard to get, my priorities would be:

1 stam+armor
2 hit+expertise
3 avoidance

Keeping this in mind I will be going for the head and the gloves in 264, and the chest and the gloves in 277. I will not go for more then 2 pieces. For both setups I am asuming bonus armor is not optional, but mandatory. This means the crafted leggings cannot be replaced.

For 264 the head is an easy choice, it's the only one out of the 4 that doesn't cost stamina. Then considering the chest is awesome for defence and expertise the second piece will be the shoulders or the gloves. Considering I would rather take the hit then the avoidance, I take the gloves.

For 277 you need the chest and the gloves since they are the only 277 bonus armor plate items. The off set shoulders have more stamina then the tier ones. For the helmet the health is about the same, but I will go off set for the hit.

Basicly what bothers me the most about these sort of discussions, Is that some ppl sacrifice a lot of health and armor for a worthless 4 set bonus, or for some hit or expertise. On the other hand I wonder why ppl won't sacrifice some avoidance for them instead. Maybe I'm just in between those ppl :P .
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