Input required for a FAQ Gearing Thread

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Re: Input required for a FAQ Gearing Thread

Postby Vorianloken » Tue Apr 06, 2010 11:38 pm

bubblecannon wrote:I've been doing a little bit of napkin math on the 18 stam glove chant vs 240 armor. The 18 stam usually works out to roughly ~80% the EH of 240 armor (+-5% depending on HP&armor levels) for 100% physical damage fights.

However:
* the hellscream buff starts to skew that number towards 18 stam
* there seems to be very few heroic fights where pure physical dmg 90% or better.

At roughly 20% HP boost through the hellscream buff it appears that 18 stam will always trump 240 armor regardless of the physical/magic dmg ratio.

I've run google over maintankadin and couldn't seem to find this in any of the authorative gear guides. Are my numbers incorrect?


Wrong thread? and I am not sure what you mean by your second point? -
bubblecannon wrote:* there seems to be very few heroic fights where pure physical dmg 90% or better.
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Re: Input required for a FAQ Gearing Thread

Postby bubblecannon » Wed Apr 07, 2010 12:12 am

this thread seemed to be about generated a new FAQ gearing thread. Previous replies were discussed enchants. It seemed a reasonable place to put it, but I'll try the other one.

RE: the 90% thing
I've been looking over the logs of damage taken in heroic modes for tanks for the first 6 fights in ICC and there's only a couple of fights where the tank damage is >90% physical damage. (ie. there's 10%+ of non-phys damage that armor won't mitigate)
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Re: Input required for a FAQ Gearing Thread

Postby Vorianloken » Wed Apr 07, 2010 12:27 am

bubblecannon wrote:this thread seemed to be about generated a new FAQ gearing thread. Previous replies were discussed enchants. It seemed a reasonable place to put it, but I'll try the other one.

RE: the 90% thing
I've been looking over the logs of damage taken in heroic modes for tanks for the first 6 fights in ICC and there's only a couple of fights where the tank damage is >90% physical damage. (ie. there's 10%+ of non-phys damage that armor won't mitigate)


It's not as much generating a new FAQ gearing thread as much as a consolidated FAQ for people to just go and get answers to quick simple questions as mentioned on (specifically) the first page. Wham-bam-thank-you-ma'am FAQ the way I see it.

The "analysis" you did is not something that would go into this FAQ as it is something of a detailed theorycraft issue and one that relates to heroic modes which not everyone here will see at a time when it is relevant. The new FAQ guide is a much more general-purpose guide. At least that's the way I see it.

And just in response to your issue - armor is trumpcard for marrowgar, saurfang, festergut. LDW doesn't matter. Gunship is irrelevant. Rotface is not a tank survival fight.
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Re: Input required for a FAQ Gearing Thread

Postby True » Wed Apr 07, 2010 9:27 am

I think an FAQ related to gear is a great idea, but the biggest need on this board is a consolidated gear list. It is great that there is a 10man list and a 25man heroic list, but how does the 10man gear compare to the 25man gear? It is overly simplistic to say that a higher iLevel is better, and it may even be too simple to say more EH is always better (though maybe not).

I would love to see a continuously updated list that married our different lists together and attempted to rank...just like Petrus' list. It gave us one less thing to worry about. It is especially valuable for people who do 10man with guild and pug 25man or vice-versa.

For instance, which is better...the tanking helm from Ony, the Tier 10 helm or the 25man helm from ICC25 Deathwhisper? I would love to see more comparisons between the two types or raiding. A ranking system would be fine for that.
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Re: Input required for a FAQ Gearing Thread

Postby Vorianloken » Thu Apr 08, 2010 8:00 am

Without causing offense to the people who want such a list, that is just pure hand-holding. Petrus' original guide, in today's context, is for new tanks and/or people who are getting back into tanking after a hiatus or what have you. While expanding upon his list to include ICC gear would be nice, it is simply not needed.

Example: Onyxia helm (i245) v/s Tier 10 helm (i251)
The ony helm is a high stam + hit piece. Do you need the hit? If yes then use the ony helm.
The tier helm is an avoidance piece. If you do not need the hit from ony helm then use this. I went from ony232 helm to t10.251 helm myself because all the hit was unneeded in my gear and avoidance from the tier helm was much more attractive.

Such a comparison should be easily made by tanks who are raiding in ICC. The above example is a matter of stat priorities.

If people doing primarily 10-man raids want an upgrade list they have Lieris' guide.

If people doing primarily 25-man raids with an occasional 10-man raid want an upgrade list they have Meloree's guide. His guide makes the disclaimer early on that the guide makes no differentiation between raids and 10-man heroic loot will be considered together with the 25-man loot.

Are people wanting a list for just normal raiding?

Example: Tier 10.264 helm v/s LDW 25-man normal Helm
Avoidance piece v/s hit piece. Take your pick based on stats that you need.

Example: Saurfang 10-man bracers v/s Marrowgar 25-man bracers
Do you want the armor from one or the massive avoidance from the other?
Vorianloken - 80 Prot/Ret || Ajeet - 80 Frost Tank/Unholy DPS || Nunnaly - 80 Cat/Tree Druid || Bulveye - 74 Protection Warrior || Sherana - 80 Combat Rogue || Shadallas - 40 Demo Warlock

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Re: Input required for a FAQ Gearing Thread

Postby chinoquezada » Thu Apr 08, 2010 12:08 pm

Vorianloken wrote:Without causing offense to the people who want such a list, that is just pure hand-holding. Petrus' original guide, in today's context, is for new tanks and/or people who are getting back into tanking after a hiatus or what have you. While expanding upon his list to include ICC gear would be nice, it is simply not needed.

Example: Onyxia helm (i245) v/s Tier 10 helm (i251)
The ony helm is a high stam + hit piece. Do you need the hit? If yes then use the ony helm.
The tier helm is an avoidance piece. If you do not need the hit from ony helm then use this. I went from ony232 helm to t10.251 helm myself because all the hit was unneeded in my gear and avoidance from the tier helm was much more attractive.

Such a comparison should be easily made by tanks who are raiding in ICC. The above example is a matter of stat priorities.

If people doing primarily 10-man raids want an upgrade list they have Lieris' guide.

If people doing primarily 25-man raids with an occasional 10-man raid want an upgrade list they have Meloree's guide. His guide makes the disclaimer early on that the guide makes no differentiation between raids and 10-man heroic loot will be considered together with the 25-man loot.

Are people wanting a list for just normal raiding?

Example: Tier 10.264 helm v/s LDW 25-man normal Helm
Avoidance piece v/s hit piece. Take your pick based on stats that you need.

Example: Saurfang 10-man bracers v/s Marrowgar 25-man bracers
Do you want the armor from one or the massive avoidance from the other?


I believe the intention here is about a FAQ on "how-to" gear rather than a Petrus style list of gear as we had in the past.
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Re: Input required for a FAQ Gearing Thread

Postby Vorianloken » Fri Apr 09, 2010 2:54 am

chinoquezada wrote:I believe the intention here is about a FAQ on "how-to" gear rather than a Petrus style list of gear as we had in the past.


Yeah I know that. My point was that this far into the expansion (last "progression" raiding), we don't need to expand upon Petrus' list to include the ICC and RS loot (when that becomes available). From all my understanding of the ICC loot, there are clear situations (for most part) where you want one piece or another. Hit v/s avoidance, Avoidance v/s armor. Or what have you.

For the examples I gave above, it's pretty straightforward what's better for one player depending on the stats they need and/or want. I mean do we really need to help people decide whether the ony helm is better than the tier 10 helm or not? Or if the tier 10 gloves are better than the badge gloves or not?

If people are undecided about choosing an item for a certain loot, we have the tools available for them here to make the decision - all the guides and theorycraft threads and not to mention the Gear Check thread.

I guess the main point I am making is that people just need to be self-sufficient about choosing the gear that's best for them and if they have any conflicts or confusion they can come here and ask for help instead of just going to a "BiS" or "Upgrade from X to Y" list.
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Re: Input required for a FAQ Gearing Thread

Postby True » Sat Apr 10, 2010 1:10 pm

I admit I am a bit taken aback by the passion with which you are arguing against a consolidated gear guide. No one complained about all of the gear guides in the past from all of BC - Petrus. While I agree we all need different gear for different purposes, we never had trouble coming to a general consensus in the past...even in Black Temple. I am surprised we have not done that now.

A quick reference guide is always extremely handy when we do not have time, when we forget about the drops in the middle of a raid, or for those who are not 100% clear on all of the mechanics of the class.

I think the biggest boon of the FAQ is to consolidate the mechanics, but a simple gear guide that bridges the gaps is important also. Is there a value to a guide that covers "Everything a pally tank can reasonably PUG?" Probably not. And...I daresay many of us are in the category where our guilds cannot manage ICC25, but we can PUG the first 5 bosses. If that gear information was consolidated covering all raids and showing full progression...that is useful...even just from ICC5 - heroic ICC25. I won't lie...I am not an expert on the mechaincs, so any list I create would be quickly debunked! :D

It's not lazy, it's useful. Big difference.
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Re: Input required for a FAQ Gearing Thread

Postby Vorianloken » Sat Apr 10, 2010 4:04 pm

I never tanked in BC, in fact I didn't turn 70 until a week or so after the 3.0 nerf patch. And I didn't start regularly visiting the site until the middle-time for ToC. So I can't speak from that experience.

From my understanding of all the gear that has been available to use from level 80 heroics to ToC, most of it was general straight upgrades - item 1 to item 2. In ICC we have so many options in a number of slots so the gear can be tailored as you want it. Wrathy did a good write-up of different gear sets he uses on his blog recently.

As I mentioned in one of the posts above, a lot of the options come down to choosing threat pieces over avoidance pieces. If you have majority 245 gear and are in 10-mans primarily, then Lieris' guide is your best source. For 25's its Meloree's.

I may just be missing your point though, in which case I apologize. But I really do believe that a guide like Petrus' for ToC -> ICC gear is just not needed. If you are stuck in 10-mans then the badge gear should be your first buy. The gloves, belt and chest are superior to anything in 10man. If you are in 25-man then you have options, mostly depending on what you can pug and what your guild does. Gear upgrade in ICC, to me at least, seems rather straightforward.
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Re: Input required for a FAQ Gearing Thread

Postby Digren » Sat Apr 10, 2010 4:23 pm

There's a place for ordered lists. I do all my own math and examine what I need and want and whatnot, but then it's all in a spreadsheet. When a piece drops and I can't remember it, I have to ask the raid leader to wait while I desperately launch NeoOffice and bring it up to check. And I refer to my own gem and enchant guide frequently for my own use. :shock:

In short, even for someone who can clearly see, when reviewing all available gear, that one piece is best for a given situation, there's no harm in having a list of all available gear with the best flagged for quick reference.

I know how I would write and format such a list, but this is the most beautiful weekend of the year here in Austin, Texas, and I would much rather be outside than playing or analyzing WoW. Maybe if it rains this coming week. :P
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Re: Input required for a FAQ Gearing Thread

Postby halabar » Tue Apr 13, 2010 11:51 am

Vorianloken wrote:I never tanked in BC, in fact I didn't turn 70 until a week or so after the 3.0 nerf patch. And I didn't start regularly visiting the site until the middle-time for ToC. So I can't speak from that experience.


To be fair, there aren't as many choices now, if you take Uld gear out the equation, and with the ICC badge and crafted gear, it gets easier still, as there is a fast-track to a good basic set for 10 or 25. When Uld was the top, it was much more confusing, as 10-man heroic gear was sometimes better than 25-man, and you still had a few really good Naxx pieces in the mix.
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Re: Input required for a FAQ Gearing Thread

Postby Vorianloken » Tue Apr 13, 2010 12:27 pm

What I was referring to things (as I mentioned before) do people really need help to decide if a 245 hit piece (Ony) is better than 251 avoidance piece(tier)? Or a 264 hit piece (LDW) better than a 264 avoidance piece(tier)That's the kind of questions that people should ask themselves because it depends on their stat priorities. Is that the kind of help we should be giving?
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Re: Input required for a FAQ Gearing Thread

Postby Digren » Tue Apr 13, 2010 1:21 pm

Vorianloken wrote:Or a 264 hit piece (LDW) better than a 264 avoidance piece(tier)That's the kind of questions that people should ask themselves because it depends on their stat priorities. Is that the kind of help we should be giving?

Advice? Only if people don't understand the uses of hit and avoidance. Anyone who does can find the options on Wowhead and figure out the best piece themselves.

But a quick reference when the 264 hit piece drops, so people can remember "Oh, yeah, I didn't want this because I'd rather wait for the tier, I'll pass on it."? That makes a lot of sense.
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Re: Input required for a FAQ Gearing Thread

Postby halabar » Wed Apr 14, 2010 11:50 am

The list also helps with x drops from x boss, so I should go run X.
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Re: Input required for a FAQ Gearing Thread

Postby Barathorn » Thu Apr 15, 2010 12:56 am

halabar wrote:The list also helps with x drops from x boss, so I should go run X.


I am working on it as so many people have requested it although I personally don't see it as required along with the FAQ list which is definately required. I will probably need help with the 25 man gear options with regards to placement.
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