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Input required for a FAQ Gearing Thread

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Re: Input required for a FAQ Gearing Thread

Postby Boyfriend » Fri Mar 12, 2010 3:36 am

If it's aimed at beginning players (I assume so) I would include some basic pointers on priorities and how big the effects of some things are.

Like how the gains of weapon enchants are overall relatively minor so just because they found out X is better than Y they shouldn't necessarily reenchant, same for gems while stam/agi is clearly superior to stam/dodge stam/parry. Stat A being better than stat B does not mean stat B is worthless.
Or if people have significant threat issues and are thousands of TPS behind they should not worry about slow weapons but look at their rotation and talent spec.

People unaccustomed to theorycrafting often draw incorrect conclusions and think things like: "Expertise is the best threat stat until softcap, ergo it must be impossible to tank with 0 expertise" or "Expertise is a good avoidance stat on some fights, ergo I really need it for those"
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Re: Input required for a FAQ Gearing Thread

Postby Wrathy » Fri Mar 12, 2010 12:07 pm

Barathorn wrote:I am certain I linked Wrathy's gear set guide in the main sticky so that why it isn't stickied. The problem we have had historically is that someone produces a great guide, and then doesn't update it which then makes it only relevant to newer tanks working on old content. This in turn means I have to badger someone into doing a new guide [thanks Lieris and Meloree] and put on some of you more than I should [thanks everyone who answers in the Gear Advice Sticky].


I haven't really said anything because I know how much work it is to keep up with everything, but I don't think you put my guide in the new thread (The Maintankadin Consolidated Index - Gearing - Patch 3.3), the gear sets section is empty. It may have just been a coding error, not sure, but I am in no hurry to pester, I splatter enough responses on the forums and it is in my signature, that people can find it.

As for the updating, I hope that everyone still feels that my guide is up to date. I just re-read it today and corrected some minor errors, but the goal of my guide was to be general enough with my theory that any tank at any level naxx 10 - ICC 25 man Hard Modes could use it to their advantage. Obviously some major redesign will be warranted at the start of 4.0. and, I may have to amend it for a sindragosa set, but really that is fairly specific in its nature.

CC is always appreciated on something like guides. Peer review is the most powerful form of keeping information up to date and accurate.
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Re: Input required for a FAQ Gearing Thread

Postby Barathorn » Fri Mar 12, 2010 8:15 pm

I apologise Wrathy, it should have been in there from the start, it is now.

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Re: Input required for a FAQ Gearing Thread

Postby Whoya5555 » Tue Mar 16, 2010 12:24 pm

I have been a fan and follower of this website for a long time now. The information and advice regarding tanking as a Paladin is second to none. Given the above, however, I would like to express my current frustration with the "Gear Discussions and Advice" section of the site -- this is especially relevant to your invitation for input regarding an "FAQ" gearing thread.

Bottom line = update Petrus's gear list!!! I understand he is no longer around, etc., but with all the input flying back and forth about sixty different gearing topics, it sure would be nice to update that format and be done with it. I can't tell you how much that list has helped me since it was created. It was an easy solution to what to gear next, and while not always perfect or applicable for every "type" of pally tank build, it was close enough to be the most useful tool on the site. All I had to do was mouse over the items for a gear spot and in a matter of seconds I had a good idea of what was crap and what was an upgrade.

I'm sure I'm going to get flamed for suggesting this, because it takes away from the "theorycraft" and "understanding your build" blah, blah - but there are of great resources already on this site to allow me to do that. Sometimes, it is really nice to be able to tell a new tank in my guild - hey, take a quick look at Petrus's gear list on Maintankadin in answer to a "this or that" random gear question.

Sorry for the rant - but there seems to be no easy way to evaluate any tanking list on this site anymore because now I have to wade through 500 pages of "evaluate my gear" threads and many other random lists that don't really account for everything like Petrus did.

Petrus we miss your list!!!!!!!
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Re: Input required for a FAQ Gearing Thread

Postby Meloree » Tue Mar 16, 2010 10:26 pm

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Re: Input required for a FAQ Gearing Thread

Postby Barathorn » Wed Mar 17, 2010 1:45 am

Whoya5555 wrote:I have been a fan and follower of this website for a long time now. The information and advice regarding tanking as a Paladin is second to none. Given the above, however, I would like to express my current frustration with the "Gear Discussions and Advice" section of the site -- this is especially relevant to your invitation for input regarding an "FAQ" gearing thread.

Bottom line = update Petrus's gear list!!! I understand he is no longer around, etc., but with all the input flying back and forth about sixty different gearing topics, it sure would be nice to update that format and be done with it. I can't tell you how much that list has helped me since it was created. It was an easy solution to what to gear next, and while not always perfect or applicable for every "type" of pally tank build, it was close enough to be the most useful tool on the site. All I had to do was mouse over the items for a gear spot and in a matter of seconds I had a good idea of what was crap and what was an upgrade.

I'm sure I'm going to get flamed for suggesting this, because it takes away from the "theorycraft" and "understanding your build" blah, blah - but there are of great resources already on this site to allow me to do that. Sometimes, it is really nice to be able to tell a new tank in my guild - hey, take a quick look at Petrus's gear list on Maintankadin in answer to a "this or that" random gear question.

Sorry for the rant - but there seems to be no easy way to evaluate any tanking list on this site anymore because now I have to wade through 500 pages of "evaluate my gear" threads and many other random lists that don't really account for everything like Petrus did.

Petrus we miss your list!!!!!!!


I agree, Petrus's list was an incredibly valuable resource for WotLK. However to say that the lists currently in place are,

a/ random

and

b/ full of evaluate my gear posts

simply isn't the case and if anything is very unfair.

We are going through a period where the gear forum is not as I want it to be, I admit that freely, but the information that everyone needs is in this forum and is in the main sticky thread for 3.3. I don't see any confusion or indeed any random posts if people read the stickies first, which is what they should be doing.

My role is to make sure this forum runs smoothly and ensure information is easy to find, which at the moment I think it is? If someone wants to upgrade Petrus's guide that is brilliant and would definately be an added plus! However that isn't something I have listed as a priority currently because,

a/ people in end game content should pretty much know their gear options by now and any questions they are likely to have are very specific and can be answered in the gear advice sticky.

b/ New tankadins should be following Yappo's failsafe guide after getting to level 80 before moving on to Lieris's 10 man guide or Meloree's 25 man guide.

I don't mean to come over as defensive but a lot of people put a lot of work into this part of the forum and in honesty it is easy to be critical with no thought of the time and effort people put in. If people want a guide like Petrus's then we will make it happen but please do not belittle the work of the people in this forum.

I hope that explains why the gear guides have moved in that direction.

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Re: Input required for a FAQ Gearing Thread

Postby Whoya5555 » Wed Mar 17, 2010 8:47 am

Meloree wrote:10-man Gear Guide
25-man Gear Guide

Linked in the sticky.


This is my point exactly - while these two lists are good for their intended purpose - they are narrow and do not provide a decent hierarchy of items to consider. The 10 man list only suggests one item to "shoot" for, and the 25 "hardmode" list might as well be a BIC list because most of the items listed (other than frost badge purchases) are pie-in-the-sky for most tanks.

I am simply suggesting that a list similar to Petrus's that compares different levels of gear by slot (e.g. the 245 weapon from ONY vs. the 264 mace from ICC first boss vs. Ardent, etc.) would be incredibly helpful, especially since RAWR is not useful for comparing paladin tanking items.

Please understand that this suggestion is simply that - a suggestion. It is not intended to be a criticism of any of the great resources you and others have created, which are greatly appreciated. I don't pretend to have your knowledge and understanding of the game, and in no way think I could produce anything that is as helpful.
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Re: Input required for a FAQ Gearing Thread

Postby halabar » Wed Mar 17, 2010 9:08 am

The other thing with a gearing thread for ICC now is that it's pretty simple in some regards.

a) get all the badge gear
b) get the crafted legs then boots
c) get the T10 head-shoulders
d) pray for RNG

While some of the type of evaluation that we did around Petrus's list is valid, Blizz created such a grind-fest in ICC gearing that you really don't have to think too much about it. The badge gear passes all the 10-man gear, so you go straight there, you grab 2pc-T-10, and pray to fill the other slots.

If you get lucky and have a lot of gear, then there is more thought needed, but really, it's not like it was in Ulduar. Since the 10-man gear is trivialized by badge gear, Blizz kinda broke things.
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Re: Input required for a FAQ Gearing Thread

Postby Barathorn » Wed Mar 17, 2010 10:07 am

Maybe it is an incorrect assumption by myself that the tanks who come here looking for advice

a/ fresh to 80 follow yappo's guide
b/ then follow either the 10 or the 25 man guide

The thing is, and there isn't anyway to make this sound ok so I will just say it, is that at this stage, with ICC and the dumbing down of gearing, the progression path for gear is pretty basic and as such I personally would expect anyone who has read the stickies [with possibly the exception of a very fresh 80] to have an idea on what they need to get [see what halabar wrote for 10 mans for example].

I am a firm believer that 'not' having everything gift wrapped and actually having to think for yourself makes you a better tank, this may be remiss of me. If this isn't the case then I am sure we can between us produce something like Petrus's guide. I just have a gut feeling that its pretty straightforward to go 232 and 245 badge gear --> ICC and really that is all there is to it at the moment for 10 man raiders.

I completely agree there is a gap in the guide at the moment for 25 man raiders, that is something we need to address.

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Re: Input required for a FAQ Gearing Thread

Postby halabar » Wed Mar 17, 2010 11:57 am

Barathorn wrote:[see what halabar wrote for 10 mans for example].... I just have a gut feeling that its pretty straightforward to go 232 and 245 badge gear --> ICC and really that is all there is to it at the moment for 10 man raiders.

I completely agree there is a gap in the guide at the moment for 25 man raiders, that is something we need to address.


Yeah, I should have qualified what I posted above for 10-mans, it's not rocket science. There are certainly more choices and complex decisions for 25-man gearing.

The problem is, unlike Petrus's guide in Ulduar, there are really 3-4 valid paths, as Theck has already outlined. So a Petrus-style guide is going to be harder to craft. Lost-Hope vs Pillars for example, which is better... hmm...
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Re: Input required for a FAQ Gearing Thread

Postby Vorianloken » Wed Mar 17, 2010 1:10 pm

halabar wrote:Lost-Hope vs Pillars for example, which is better... hmm...


the ones that look sexier :)
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Re: Input required for a FAQ Gearing Thread

Postby bldavis » Wed Mar 17, 2010 5:03 pm

Vorianloken wrote:
halabar wrote:Lost-Hope vs Pillars for example, which is better... hmm...


the ones that look sexier :)

the ones with more CBH? :?
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Re: Input required for a FAQ Gearing Thread

Postby Vorianloken » Thu Mar 18, 2010 1:06 am

bldavis wrote:
Vorianloken wrote:
halabar wrote:Lost-Hope vs Pillars for example, which is better... hmm...


the ones that look sexier :)

the ones with more CBH? :?


perhaps although I play a male paladin with an ego bigger than deathwing >.>

back on topic: I may have missed the discussion but do we know how good the 4-pc is in hard modes at the 10/25-man level and if having the 4pc outweighs the benefits of badge offset items for 10-man raiders? If the 4pc is valuable then that could affect the gearing for 10-man raiders. If we do then I apologize for bringing it up here but if not then maybe we should start a discussion on that (in another thread ofc - and I'll check to make sure if the topic is already covered or not)
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Re: Input required for a FAQ Gearing Thread

Postby Boyfriend » Thu Mar 18, 2010 3:17 am

Vorianloken wrote:back on topic: I may have missed the discussion but do we know how good the 4-pc is in hard modes at the 10/25-man level and if having the 4pc outweighs the benefits of badge offset items for 10-man raiders? If the 4pc is valuable then that could affect the gearing for 10-man raiders. If we do then I apologize for bringing it up here but if not then maybe we should start a discussion on that (in another thread ofc - and I'll check to make sure if the topic is already covered or not)


Since legs is in most case not a viable consideration (due to lack of armor) The slot of contention is thus the shoulder slot. At the 10 man level you lose either gloves or chest and shoulders from offset and at the 25 man level just shoulders.

At the 25 man level it is fairly difficult to get ilevel 277 shoulders, as compared with boneguard commanders. (25 raiders, 1 heroic token per boss you do the math) For the 10 man heroic level I assume you can get your tokens from 25 man normal, but it would also cost you another offset pieces, thus a bigger EH loss than @ 277. Comparing that with the 4pc being fairly meh (Avoidance on a GCD limited ability that is on cooldown for the first minute of a fight) I think has generally led to the silent consensus that for heroic you'd go with 2-264 or 3-277 pc of T10.
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Re: Input required for a FAQ Gearing Thread

Postby bubblecannon » Tue Apr 06, 2010 8:55 pm

I've been doing a little bit of napkin math on the 18 stam glove chant vs 240 armor. The 18 stam usually works out to roughly ~80% the EH of 240 armor (+-5% depending on HP&armor levels) for 100% physical damage fights.

However:
* the hellscream buff starts to skew that number towards 18 stam
* there seems to be very few heroic fights where pure physical dmg 90% or better.

At roughly 20% HP boost through the hellscream buff it appears that 18 stam will always trump 240 armor regardless of the physical/magic dmg ratio.

I've run google over maintankadin and couldn't seem to find this in any of the authorative gear guides. Are my numbers incorrect?
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