Input required for a FAQ Gearing Thread

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Input required for a FAQ Gearing Thread

Postby Barathorn » Thu Mar 11, 2010 1:00 am

In an effort to give a centralised yes/no answer to the majority of simple questions appearing on the gearing thread it is time once again for me to ask for your input to make this happen.

I intend to have a 5 man, 10 man and 25 man section so that we cover all the bases and aim to simple answers to questions such as,

what hit do I need?
expertise is it important?
which piece of T10 do I get first?
what is my first EoF purchase?
any other simple questions that you can think of!

Do you think this is a worthwhile exercise, or just something else people may ignore that clutters up the forum.

Thoughts?

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Re: Input required for a FAQ Gearing Thread

Postby Meloree » Thu Mar 11, 2010 1:34 am

Excellent idea.

You need 0 hit. More is nice. No, I'm not being flippant.
You need 0 expertise. More is nice. No, I'm not being flippant.
Your first EoF purchase is one of Sentinel's Winter Cloak, Gauntlets of the Kraken, Cataclysmic Chestguard, or Verdegris Chain Belt. Your 2nd, 3rd, and 4th EoF purchases are the remaining 3. Replace weakest gear piece first.
Get T10 hat first. Other options aren't attractive until ilvl277.

Other questions we see a lot of:
-Tier bonuses, are they worth it? My opinion remains: Not until 277 ilvl. Even then 4pc will only see occasional use. There remains debate.
-What Trinkets should I use? Stamina trinkets or armor trinkets. The armor trinket from Triumph badges is especially attractive, because it just costs Triumph badges. Avoid avoidance trinkets. They're a bad deal.
-What shield should I wear? The highest ilvl one you can find. If two shields are tied in ilvl, the one with more stamina.
-Help. OMG, I need a weapon? Pug ToGC10. Even a backwater like Garona has regular pug ToGC10s. Crusader's Glory/Ardent Guard is basically the best thing you'll get for a long long while. Conveniently, the ring from Twins will serve you well, as well.
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Re: Input required for a FAQ Gearing Thread

Postby Barathorn » Thu Mar 11, 2010 2:08 am

It is my hope [yes I am the eternal optimist honest!] that if we have these questions and their answers in plain view then the forum will have space for the real nitty gritty gear discussions that we all know and love. It should also serve as a convenient first stop for new Tankadins who need help.

Can anyone else think of any other answers to simple questions we need to put in this thread?

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Re: Input required for a FAQ Gearing Thread

Postby econ21 » Thu Mar 11, 2010 6:21 am

Maybe "what do I need to start tanking ICC/what is the best pre-raid gear I can get?"

I like the answer provided on tankspot:
http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.php? ... Gear-Guide

Specifically, the RAWR file:
http://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B_0ICbl ... NDk0&hl=en

This seems to be precisely what one could get by following Yappo's guide to gearing up from emblems/crafting (excluding EoF and things crafted from primordial saronite). My only disappointment with it is finding out I am so generic.

More generally, directing people to RAWR when looking at gear issues might be sensible. It seems that the RAWR model weights avoidance over stamina a lot more than tanks do in practice, so I am not saying people should slavishly pick whatever RAWR favours. For example, my first EoF purchase was the corroded skeleton key because I (and, I feared, potential PUGs) felt rather insecure about my hitpoints. But as a tool to cleanly compare gear and plan out upgrades, it is very neat. You can also set up the gems to be pure stamina etc. For example, you can use it find upgrades to the above pre-raid gear using EoF and IIRC, it will prioritise the same four items that Meloree recommended above.

Perhaps one question could be: what resources are there to help me make gear choices? The answer could refer to RAWR and others such as Wowhead. Wowhead has some advantages - for example, if you want a listing of all gear available from EoF, listed by tankadin weights - and the item comparison tool is neat. But it is less "holistic" than RAWR, making it harder to track of your the overall defence, hit etc under different gear choices.
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Re: Input required for a FAQ Gearing Thread

Postby Wrathy » Thu Mar 11, 2010 9:28 am

In response to econ, Rawr is suboptimal and makes poor decisions for paladins, I would not send newer tankadins with questions to that, They are better suited doing some research on these forums than installing that program.

Bara, I think there are a few more things that we can touch upon:

What Libram Should I use? Libram of Defiance for Progression, Libram of Valiance for Threat (with a short explanation as to why the new ones are a waste of badges until you do not need anything else)

What is the Armor Cap? 49,905 for a level 83 boss (this will give you 75% reduction in physical damage taken)

I am having problems with Threat, can gear help? A brief explanation on weapon speed, using a 2.6 speed weapon, where you can get the easiest ones. Hit and Expertise and their relative value for threat (especially expertise sub soft cap), as well as the strength versus block value debate. Some people still ask about stacking BV and threat.

Avoidance or Mitigation? Mitigation inside ICC is king. We can have a very brief summary of the discussions surrounding armor and stamina increasing survival, and how avoidance has fallen off due to Chill of the Throne.

I'm sure there are some more, but that is all I can think of for now. I agree that the majority of people come here looking for their next frost emblem pick and Meloree hit the nail on the head. Cloak, Chest, Gloves, and Belt should be the first four things you spend ANY badges on. The order is based off of their current gear and which one gives them the best relative upgrade.
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Re: Input required for a FAQ Gearing Thread

Postby bashef » Thu Mar 11, 2010 10:49 am

Sounds like a great idea.

Might be worth throwing in "how should I gem?" too. Might be a bit contentious, but you could say something bland like: for progession (read, you're worried about the damage you're taking) 30 stam in everything except one red, which you get by putting agi/stam in the place that nets you the biggest stam socket bonus. For more balanced content, go def/stam yellow, agi/stam red and stam blue. Might also want to touch on not gemming for threat and just taking what comes on gear (sorta Meloree's point I guess, but more explicit). This is probably three questions.

Other stuff that crops up frequently:

- Do I take gear with avoidance, threat, or bonus armour? Armour
- Are the crafted feet worth getting? Decent if you can spare the money and defense. There are better drops available
- Are the crafted legs worth getting? Yes, they're BiS at the 264 and arguably 277 level
- How much dodge/parry/block do I need? Just take what's on your gear, there is no minimum and it's not worth gearing for it
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Re: Input required for a FAQ Gearing Thread

Postby Meloree » Thu Mar 11, 2010 10:55 am

It's worth noting that I completely skipped over anything relevant to 5-mans, if that wasn't obvious.
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Re: Input required for a FAQ Gearing Thread

Postby Vorianloken » Thu Mar 11, 2010 11:04 am

Given how many times I've seen these questions asked (official tank/paladin forums, in-game, sometimes on these boards)

- With the icewell radiance debuff, should I be gemming for parry now? - the debuff changes nothing, there is no need to change gearing philosophies like that.
- What is the new uncrushable and should I be gearing for it? - 102.4% combined miss/dodge/parry/block which is termed unhittable and at this point every attack is at least blocked.
- What are my stat priorities for progression? - in ICC it is stam and armor. Some fights favor armor more such as blood queen and festergut and saurfang.
- 10 stat gem/enchant - yes/no? - for progression sets 275 hp to chest is best and if you need a red gem to activate your meta than it should be a shifting dreadstone (agi/stam).

If my answers to the above questions are a little off then feel free to correct them.

In response to econ --

RAWR is a decent tool for gearing. But the default settings are very stupid. You have to really go in and mess with the gemming templates, filters and what not. You can't just take the upgrades it suggests at face value. You have to understand your own priorities and how things affect you based on your entire gear set and know which stats are more valuable to you.

That said, for quick comparisons, I find wowhead much better for direct comparisons. And I just found out today that you can add gems/enchants to gear during comparisons :P Had no idea haha.
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Re: Input required for a FAQ Gearing Thread

Postby Vorianloken » Thu Mar 11, 2010 11:09 am

bashef wrote:Sounds like a great idea.

Might be worth throwing in "how should I gem?" too. Might be a bit contentious, but you could say something bland like: for progession (read, you're worried about the damage you're taking) 30 stam in everything except one red, which you get by putting agi/stam in the place that nets you the biggest stam socket bonus. For more balanced content, go def/stam yellow, agi/stam red and stam blue. Might also want to touch on not gemming for threat and just taking what comes on gear (sorta Meloree's point I guess, but more explicit). This is probably three questions.

Other stuff that crops up frequently:

- Do I take gear with avoidance, threat, or bonus armour? Armour
- Are the crafted feet worth getting? Decent if you can spare the money and defense. There are better drops available
- Are the crafted legs worth getting? Yes, they're BiS at the 264 and arguably 277 level
- How much dodge/parry/block do I need? Just take what's on your gear, there is no minimum and it's not worth gearing for it


Digren has done an extensive post on gemming/enchanting for 3.3 so other than a brief outline I believe the FAQ should just go for that.

In regards to getting crafted gear. Gear today is always better than gear maybe tomorrow. Get the gear crafted today and when you eventually get a drop then mix/match gear sets.

That reminds me, the FAQ should probably touch upon maintaining different gear-sets where possible. Key note: never vendor/delete old gear but keep it in bank :)
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Re: Input required for a FAQ Gearing Thread

Postby Wrathy » Thu Mar 11, 2010 11:55 am

Vorianloken wrote:That reminds me, the FAQ should probably touch upon maintaining different gear-sets where possible. Key note: never vendor/delete old gear but keep it in bank


Yeah my Gear Set Guide has long since fallen off the first page. It really doesn't need to get bumped for no reason, and I believe it is fairly complete, resulting in little room for discussion or further posting.
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Re: Input required for a FAQ Gearing Thread

Postby Digren » Thu Mar 11, 2010 12:25 pm

Vorianloken wrote:Given how many times I've seen these questions asked (official tank/paladin forums, in-game, sometimes on these boards)

- What is the new uncrushable and should I be gearing for it? - 102.4% combined miss/dodge/parry/block which is termed unhittable and at this point every attack is at least blocked.


I prefer the term "block cap" over "unhittable" because some people call a block a "blocked hit", and unhittable sounds like 101.8% combined dodge/parry/miss (something achievable for certain classes at certain times in WoW's history for short durations).

bashef wrote:Might be worth throwing in "how should I gem?" too. Might be a bit contentious, but you could say something bland like: for progession (read, you're worried about the damage you're taking) 30 stam in everything except one red, which you get by putting agi/stam in the place that nets you the biggest stam socket bonus. For more balanced content, go def/stam yellow, agi/stam red and stam blue. Might also want to touch on not gemming for threat and just taking what comes on gear (sorta Meloree's point I guess, but more explicit). This is probably three questions.


I don't like this only because it's not the correct way to gem/enchant. I'd rather give people who seek out this site correct answers than simple answers, when the correct and simple answers differ.

Vorianloken wrote:- 10 stat gem/enchant - yes/no? - for progression sets 275 hp to chest is best and if you need a red gem to activate your meta than it should be a shifting dreadstone (agi/stam).


Yes. This and the "which weapon enchant should I use" questions are by far the two most popular gem/enchant questions, and both of these have correct and simple answers.
"Do not use the +10 stats gem or chest enchant because alternatives yield more of stats you need."
"Any of Exceptional Agility, Blood Draining, Mongoose, or Accuracy are fine. Pick the one with the glow color you like best."
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Re: Input required for a FAQ Gearing Thread

Postby theckhd » Thu Mar 11, 2010 1:27 pm

It seems like there would be a lot of overlap with other guides. That's not necessarily a problem, but it will lead to a lot of confusion when things change and one guide gets updated while the other does not.

But I can see some advantages to having one giant compilation akin to the "Simple Questions, Simple Answers" EJ threads. A well-maintained FAQ thread like you've suggested is even better, as the first post can be a rapid-fire list of questions and answers that's easy to navigate and search.

My suggestion to minimize overlap is to utilize the other guides out there and link to them. For example:

Q: When should I match socket bonuses, and when should I just gem stamina?
A: Depends on your gear level. See the Gem Section of Digren's Gem and Enchant Guide.

Q: What are the hit / expertise caps?
A: 8% melee hit, 26 (soft-cap) or 56 (hard-cap) expertise. See the conversions/caps section of Theck's "The Attack Table" article.

Q: What weapon enchant do I use?
A: Any of Exceptional Agility, Blood Draining, Mongoose, or Accuracy are fine. See the Enchant section of Digren's Gem and Enchant Guide.

Q: What's the best threat glyph?
A: Seal of Vengeance. See Theck's MATLAB Glyph Analysis

Q: This question doesn't have a relevant guide?
A: This is a reasonably thorough, one paragraph answer to such a question. It should include links to relevant threads (if there are any), and comment on current trends. It shouldn't go too deep into math, if it needs to it deserves its own thread (which can then be linked to!). This answer is very very meta.
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Re: Input required for a FAQ Gearing Thread

Postby Kaelandros » Thu Mar 11, 2010 1:31 pm

Meloree wrote:Your first EoF purchase is one of Sentinel's Winter Cloak, Gauntlets of the Kraken, Cataclysmic Chestguard, or Verdegris Chain Belt. Your 2nd, 3rd, and 4th EoF purchases are the remaining 3. Replace weakest gear piece first.
Get T10 hat first. Other options aren't attractive until ilvl277.


I agree with this order. However, I feel when mentioning which tier piece you should get first you should also mention that the hat is optimal because the gloves and pants drop in VoA which should be run in 10/25 every single week. If you're wearing Liadrin's gear the 251 pieces are still an upgrade until you can afford Kraken/Pillars.
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Re: Input required for a FAQ Gearing Thread

Postby Vorianloken » Thu Mar 11, 2010 2:43 pm

The way Theckd did it is exactly how I was imagining the FAQ guide would be.

Digren, point taken.

And Wrathy's gear set guide should probably get stickied :)
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Re: Input required for a FAQ Gearing Thread

Postby Barathorn » Fri Mar 12, 2010 1:25 am

Vorianloken wrote:The way Theckd did it is exactly how I was imagining the FAQ guide would be.

Digren, point taken.

And Wrathy's gear set guide should probably get stickied :)


Yeah that is pretty much exactly how I was thinking of it looking as well theckhd and yes there will be an overlap with the other guides but with the limited time available one thread with quick answers on it will allow me to concentrate on getting all the main guides sorted, well that is the idea in principle anyway.

I am certain I linked Wrathy's gear set guide in the main sticky so that why it isn't stickied. The problem we have had historically is that someone produces a great guide, and then doesn't update it which then makes it only relevant to newer tanks working on old content. This in turn means I have to badger someone into doing a new guide [thanks Lieris and Meloree] and put on some of you more than I should [thanks everyone who answers in the Gear Advice Sticky].

I am far from happy with how the gear guide is currently but that is purely down to a time issue, me being a perfectionist and the amount of posts we get in this sub section of the forum that need answering. I want something that is simple, looks good and gives easy to find answers, hopefully the FAQ will go some way towards addressing that.

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