trinket discussion

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Re: trinket discussion

Postby Meloree » Mon Mar 08, 2010 1:39 pm

I hope it's buffed. I'm not significantly beyond either of those numbers unbuffed in my default setup, with a fair amount of ilvl277 gear.
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Re: trinket discussion

Postby Vorianloken » Mon Mar 08, 2010 2:04 pm

Barathorn wrote:In fairness it does come down to wha level of progression you are running at, what drops you have been blessed with and whether you are 10 or 25 man raiding.

For the 'majority' of 10 man raiders at a reasonable gear level starting ICC10 it is perfectly reasonable to expect 46k health upwards and around 34k armor achieved by the 1 stamina trinket and armor trinket approach. For magic heavy fights - Deathwhisper and stamina intensive fights ie - Lich King you just switch out what you don't need for the fight and replace with what you do.

Armor for physical fights is not to be undervalued!!!

Barathorn


I've had tanks with like 40k hp do just fine on the first 4 bosses.
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Re: trinket discussion

Postby Roots » Mon Mar 08, 2010 2:19 pm

Fester eats 40k tanks alive.
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Re: trinket discussion

Postby Vorianloken » Tue Mar 09, 2010 1:16 am

Roots wrote:Fester eats 40k tanks alive.


Had a 40k hp DK tank on fester 10 last night. 1-shot the boss with almost a minute left on the timer. He was frost if that helps too :)
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Re: trinket discussion

Postby Barathorn » Tue Mar 09, 2010 1:29 am

Meloree wrote:I hope it's buffed. I'm not significantly beyond either of those numbers unbuffed in my default setup, with a fair amount of ilvl277 gear.


The figures I quoted are buffed figures :wink:
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Re: trinket discussion

Postby sabedoriaclark » Tue Mar 09, 2010 12:18 pm

I managed to get into an ICC25 PuG recently and the Corpse Tongue Coin dropped for me. At first I was very excited as being in a 10man guild I never expected to get any drops out of ICC25. But after testing it on a few fights I am sadly underwhelmed. Seems like it might not even be as good as the Black Heart, which is disappointing. I'll probably resign myself to buying the EoT armour trinket after all.

Has there been any discussion of the Corpse Tongue Coin and its comparative value? What about that armour effect under 35% health? How good is that?
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Re: trinket discussion

Postby Spotnick » Tue Mar 09, 2010 2:02 pm

I don't know, I honestly have not seen a fight yet where trinkets made a difference, but this week on Festergut 25 I was hoping I had my dodge cooldown on pugent blight..

But I survived.

I still have mixed feelings about Putricide 10's trinket, and if I should continue to go to toc 25 for the Juggernaut's Vitality trinket.
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Re: trinket discussion

Postby crabby654 » Tue Mar 09, 2010 3:04 pm

Spotnick wrote:I don't know, I honestly have not seen a fight yet where trinkets made a difference, but this week on Festergut 25 I was hoping I had my dodge cooldown on pugent blight..

But I survived.

I still have mixed feelings about Putricide 10's trinket, and if I should continue to go to toc 25 for the Juggernaut's Vitality trinket.


See I dunno, I think I will plan on having 3 main trinkets I'll switch in and out. Corroded Key, Unidentifiable Organ (those 2 for all the melee heavy fights), and then as soon as the Sindragosa's Flawless Fang I'd probably use that + key for my 2 stam trinkets. At the moment for my 2 Stams im using Key + Black Heart. I think people undervalue the Putricide 10 man trinket, I do see a lot of higher end pally tanks use it that are like 11/12 heroic ICC 25 man.
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Re: trinket discussion

Postby Roots » Tue Mar 09, 2010 3:26 pm

Vorianloken wrote:
Roots wrote:Fester eats 40k tanks alive.


Had a 40k hp DK tank on fester 10 last night. 1-shot the boss with almost a minute left on the timer. He was frost if that helps too :)


Would definitely help. Sounds like healers made up for it. Walked into 10 Fester the first week he was available with my DK alt and he straight up murdered me sitting around 41k
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Re: trinket discussion

Postby Meloree » Tue Mar 09, 2010 3:32 pm

Alternatively, week one in 25man we used a feral kitten to tank it with roughly 40k hp in bear form... and cat spec. YMMV.
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Re: trinket discussion

Postby Meloree » Tue Mar 09, 2010 3:33 pm

crabby654 wrote:
Spotnick wrote:I don't know, I honestly have not seen a fight yet where trinkets made a difference, but this week on Festergut 25 I was hoping I had my dodge cooldown on pugent blight..

But I survived.

I still have mixed feelings about Putricide 10's trinket, and if I should continue to go to toc 25 for the Juggernaut's Vitality trinket.


See I dunno, I think I will plan on having 3 main trinkets I'll switch in and out. Corroded Key, Unidentifiable Organ (those 2 for all the melee heavy fights), and then as soon as the Sindragosa's Flawless Fang I'd probably use that + key for my 2 stam trinkets. At the moment for my 2 Stams im using Key + Black Heart. I think people undervalue the Putricide 10 man trinket, I do see a lot of higher end pally tanks use it that are like 11/12 heroic ICC 25 man.


We certainly used to undervalue it, yeah. I'd like to have one (hasn't dropped for me yet), there's a few fights where I'd go double-armor, and for the ones I wear single-armor trinket, it'd be the trinket of choice over glyph, in most cases.
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Re: trinket discussion

Postby blakk » Tue Mar 09, 2010 4:07 pm

Meloree wrote:
crabby654 wrote:
Spotnick wrote:I don't know, I honestly have not seen a fight yet where trinkets made a difference, but this week on Festergut 25 I was hoping I had my dodge cooldown on pugent blight..

But I survived.

I still have mixed feelings about Putricide 10's trinket, and if I should continue to go to toc 25 for the Juggernaut's Vitality trinket.


See I dunno, I think I will plan on having 3 main trinkets I'll switch in and out. Corroded Key, Unidentifiable Organ (those 2 for all the melee heavy fights), and then as soon as the Sindragosa's Flawless Fang I'd probably use that + key for my 2 stam trinkets. At the moment for my 2 Stams im using Key + Black Heart. I think people undervalue the Putricide 10 man trinket, I do see a lot of higher end pally tanks use it that are like 11/12 heroic ICC 25 man.


We certainly used to undervalue it, yeah. I'd like to have one (hasn't dropped for me yet), there's a few fights where I'd go double-armor, and for the ones I wear single-armor trinket, it'd be the trinket of choice over glyph, in most cases.

the trinket its self isn't bad. the armor is better than on glyph. the equip effect however is a little lackluster and the stack likes to fall off so it has an rng component and tanks don't like rng.
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Re: trinket discussion

Postby Roots » Tue Mar 09, 2010 5:36 pm

Meloree wrote:Alternatively, week one in 25man we used a feral kitten to tank it with roughly 40k hp in bear form... and cat spec. YMMV.


So I guess the healers I brought really sucked then, cause I rotated cds and called for them and everything. I stand corrected. Also haven't been in that guild (or any guild) since the night before BQL was released, so outside of 25 gdkps with Fusion my experience with healers have not always gone so well.
When I did it on my main I stayed in largely tank gear with kitty spec and still ripped him a new one though.
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Re: trinket discussion

Postby Folstar » Tue Mar 09, 2010 11:28 pm

Wrathy wrote:While I understand your argument, there are a few things which have been extensively discussed on these boards which will modify your numbers slightly. At current gear levels of tanks, 11 armor is equal to 1 stamina. Even though this lessens my value of effective health a very small amount, it is still more beneficial to use the correct values.

If you are looking for more math behind this theory beyond some guilds "effective health calculator" and something that is failsafe and has been peer reviewed quite a bit, by both Maintankadins and quite a few EJ theorycrafters who came over to have this very discussion, you can find the calcs here.

Also, the point of armor versus stamina is to understand what happens when a tank takes burst damage. We have had plenty of pages of discussion on this fact, the purpose and value of armor, and why an armor trinket is valuable. While you may have lost a few points of stamina, you are gaining damage mitigation. In addition, the Organs equip effect is only icing on the cake, you should be wearing it purely for the mitigation value. If the jusitification for it is that you have on use effects, if you equip dual juggies/satrinas you have completely lost the second on use effect because they share a cd.

Finally, if you look at some parses, you will see that there are 100% physical damage fights, which goes against what you said on your first post. DBS is a pure physical fight. Marrowgar is a pure physical fight if you are doing your job correctly, Rotface MT is a pure physical fight. These facts aside, it has still been detailed at great lengths that the tanking community values armor quite a bit. While yes I agree that if you are one of the few privileged to have every tanking trinket in the game, dual stam trinkets are very powerful, that should not say that an armor/stam combo is a poor decision, and in fact is something which most of the tanks on these boards in end game guilds employ on specific fights.


Gear level varies. I have seen the number anywhere between 10-12 for Armor to STA depending on gear, I chose the lower end because the higher the number the more attractive STA trinkets (and we don't want it to look like I'm cheating the numbers, right?). I do not think there is a single set universal value for that conversion, but I could be mistaken

While I have not read the TEH thread start to end (or claim to understand half of what theck goes on about), nothing in there that I saw suggested an amount of STA that was greater PEH would be diminished by factoring in magic, quite the contrary actually.

I think there may be some miscommunication at this point... my original post was a tongue in cheek commentary on the current tank itemization/gearing. I never intended to say "armor is useless and people who use it are stupid"- actually I think armor is a spectacular stat, but for trinkets 'dual STA trinkets are very powerful' and I think some people might even agree with that. Again, if I did not have the 192 STA trinket I would be dying for Organ to drop(I am, woefully, not one of those have every trinket super special tanks- yet), and would be wearing the EoT trinket a lot more often in the meantime.

DBS- ya got me, though I wear avoidance trinkets to heal him a bit less (maybe) when the other tank falls asleep, taunt misses, or we do the lazy 'no kiting adds' strat for less blood power; Marrowgar- I think it is a latency issue, but our tanks end up taking a fair amount of frost damage on him (or maybe we just space out- that happens a lot); Rotface- who would want to MT when you can kite?! though there are a few potential sources for nonphysical damage even on the MT (stray ooze, explosion, nothing major I suppose)
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Re: trinket discussion

Postby Vorianloken » Wed Mar 10, 2010 4:02 am

Folstar wrote:Rotface- who would want to MT when you can kite?! though there are a few potential sources for nonphysical damage even on the MT (stray ooze, explosion, nothing major I suppose)


I much prefer MTing rotface than kiting. The kiting part is very boring. Would rather be b**ch-slapping rotface than playing tag with some sort of mutated moving jelly.
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