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Tiny Abomination in a Jar

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Tiny Abomination in a Jar

Postby wingman » Thu Jan 28, 2010 6:37 pm

So, I was talking to Brekkie (Joanadark on these boards) last night. He was quite excited that this trinket had dropped http://www.wowhead.com/?item=50351. It's BiS for ret paladins. It dropped for our guild a couple of weeks ago and no one wanted it at all, so our guild leader was willing to spend some priority to "play with it" and test it out. Our guild leader is a DK and tends to think the trinket is terrible and broken right now. Anyway, since all of our melee DPS seem to dislike this trinket, it seems to be quite attainable for me for my ret set. All of this got me thinking though, if this is great for ret, how good of a threat trinket is it for us? How good of a damage trinket is it for prot? Has anyone run the numbers or given any thought to this trinket as either a threat or just pure damage trinket?
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Re: Tiny Abomination in a Jar

Postby steadypal » Thu Jan 28, 2010 7:13 pm

are you two still sure its BIS for rets even after they nerfed SOC so that the full stack dbl hit couldnt proc anything?
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Re: Tiny Abomination in a Jar

Postby KevinG81 » Thu Jan 28, 2010 9:02 pm

its most likely only BiS if you can use the all the hit on it... which most retadins are heavy on hit.
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Re: Tiny Abomination in a Jar

Postby wingman » Thu Jan 28, 2010 9:39 pm

well, I doubt the damage that it does is holy, so, probably not as good for threat as other dps trinkets that increase holy damage. Still might be good for a raw dps increase.
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Re: Tiny Abomination in a Jar

Postby The mighty Iesous » Fri Jan 29, 2010 3:56 am

the trinket is bis by a large margin atm it it scales with gear perfectly. some people estimate it nearly twice as good as dc hero, if no enhancer, ret pala wants it they are really bad :>

this is post nerf and shows why:

http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/7657 ... 185937.jpg
http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/5276 ... 154103.jpg

it WILL BE nerfed again when they realise how good it is for ret and i have to mention the extremely annoying ranged bug (trinket has very small procc range you need to stay inside the mob-circle or it will just disappear and you lost the procc)
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Re: Tiny Abomination in a Jar

Postby theckhd » Mon Feb 01, 2010 6:58 am

From the tooltip, it seems like it would be decent. My guess is that it's on par with DMC:G. Let's check.

85 hit rating is going to be a little lower threat than DMC:G's 114 Strength (after Kings and DivStr). The real question is the effectiveness of the proc. If it triggers on all of the same things that Mongoose does (Melee, HotR, 3xJudgement), then we get about 1.2 procs every second (1.1448 procs per second assuming 10% boss avoidance, but the trinket will increase that slightly).

Every 6.66 seconds or so we'll get an extra 50% damage weapon swing. I assume that extra swing can proc seals, so you'll get ~590 damage from the seal and ~475 for the half-swing. That's about 160 DPS or 330 TPS.

From the stat analysis, we can estimate STR and hit rating to be roughly the same for DPS. We'll go with 14 DPS or 30 TPS for every 10 points of STR or hit rating.

DMC:G gives a net 240 STR on average after Kings & DivStr, for around 336 DPS (or 720 TPS)

Tiny Abom gives you 85 hit rating for 119 DPS (or 255 TPS) along with the proc, for 279 DPS (or 585 TPS).

So it looks like DMC:G is still going to be the stronger choice, unless I've missed something.
Last edited by theckhd on Mon Feb 01, 2010 10:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tiny Abomination in a Jar

Postby Meloree » Mon Feb 01, 2010 9:32 am

theckhd wrote:Every 6.66 seconds or so we'll get an extra 50% damage weapon swing. I assume that extra swing can proc seals, so you'll get ~590 damage from the seal and ~475 for the half-swing. That's about 160 DPS or 330 TPS.

Tiny Abom gives you 85 hit rating for 119 DPS (or 255 TPS) along with the proc, for 179 DPS (or 585 TPS).


I may not be able to play in the same math league as you, Theck, but I'm almost positive that 119+160=279.
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Re: Tiny Abomination in a Jar

Postby theckhd » Mon Feb 01, 2010 10:00 am

Meloree wrote:
theckhd wrote:Every 6.66 seconds or so we'll get an extra 50% damage weapon swing. I assume that extra swing can proc seals, so you'll get ~590 damage from the seal and ~475 for the half-swing. That's about 160 DPS or 330 TPS.

Tiny Abom gives you 85 hit rating for 119 DPS (or 255 TPS) along with the proc, for 179 DPS (or 585 TPS).


I may not be able to play in the same math league as you, Theck, but I'm almost positive that 119+160=279.

Oops, typo. Thanks.
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Re: Tiny Abomination in a Jar

Postby Zobel » Mon Feb 01, 2010 10:04 am

It's also bugged quite a bit, in ways that further reduce dps.
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Re: Tiny Abomination in a Jar

Postby tlitp » Mon Feb 01, 2010 3:57 pm

theckhd wrote:(...) The real question is the effectiveness of the proc. If it triggers on all of the same things that Mongoose does (Melee, HotR, 3xJudgement), then we get about 1.2 procs every second (1.1448 procs per second assuming 10% boss avoidance, but the trinket will increase that slightly).

ShoR and Reckoning procs haven't been thoroughly tested, as far as I know. Moreover, there's one critical difference between Goose/BW/Bers and TAiaJ - the latter can generate motes off seal procs (yes, even SoR and on-hit SoV). Procs from ppm-based effects, HV/BC, Manifest Anger - all of these do not count as valid triggers.

(...) Every 6.66 seconds or so we'll get an extra 50% damage weapon swing. I assume that extra swing can proc seals, so you'll get ~590 damage from the seal and ~475 for the half-swing. That's about 160 DPS or 330 TPS.

I suspect that's a fine example of "napkin math", right ? :P
As I'm not sure of how you've used the numbers, I'll merely point out that :
- MA is unavoidable*
- MA can crit (with the regular 2.0 multiplier)
- the seal procs associated with MA can also generate motes
- MA itself is a valid trigger for Goose-like effects, but not for HV/BC

* There is however that "0 yard issue" already mentioned by Zobel.

So it looks like DMC:G is still going to be the stronger choice, unless I've missed something.

Much like its ppm-based brethren, TAiaJ is way more effective in AoE situations. SoComm/HotR and less strict hit/exp requirements take care of that. Admittedly, retribution paladins gain more of this trinket, due to their RV being no match for protection's JotJ.
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Re: Tiny Abomination in a Jar

Postby theckhd » Mon Feb 01, 2010 6:21 pm

Well, it's napkin math based on a very vague guess at the mechanics. If it doesn't work like Mongoose, then of course it's all wrong.

For one thing, if seal procs trigger it, then it's going to be massively better than my quick calculation suggested. That alone would probably be enough to push it ahead of DMC:G.
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Re: Tiny Abomination in a Jar

Postby inthedrops » Fri Jun 11, 2010 5:10 am

I just picked up the heroic version of this and was testing it out on some dummies while in tank gear.

Notes: "Mote of Anger" are the stacks that build up with the trinket. "Manifest Anger" is the proc caused when the stack reaches 7.

With SoV up:
1. Manifest Anger procs cause an additional Seal of Vengeance hit!
2. Seal of Vengeance hits do in fact proc Mote of Anger stacks!
3. Holy Vengeance ticks do NOT proc Mote of Anger stacks :(
4. Sometimes, from a single melee hit, I am proccing 3 more Mote of Anger stacks. I can't figure out what's triggering this extra one.

With SoComm up:
1. SoComm does NOT appear to proc Mote of Anger stacks at all :(

Other notes:
1. Hammer of the Righteous does indeed appear to proc Mote of Anger stacks for each target it hits!

I haven't searched for bug reports on this trinket but the behavior I see on test dummies feels a bit weird to me.

Edit: I think it's the refreshing of the SoV DoT that has a chance to proc another mote. So perhaps it works as expected. And I guess it's still ok with SoComm because when Manifest Anger procs it appears to proc SoComm as a proper cleave (hitting multiple targets on the proc).

So I'm happy :)
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Re: Tiny Abomination in a Jar

Postby Marblehead » Fri Jun 11, 2010 6:12 am

There's already been a conversation about TaiAJ in the Theck's Matlab thread and this is my extensive testing of the trinket.

I'm also under the impression that when using SoComm, DMC:G provides more dps than TaiAJ.
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Re: Tiny Abomination in a Jar

Postby inthedrops » Fri Jun 11, 2010 7:31 am

Marblehead wrote:There's already been a conversation about TaiAJ in the Theck's Matlab thread and this is my extensive testing of the trinket.

I'm also under the impression that when using SoComm, DMC:G provides more dps than TaiAJ.


Thank you so much! I had just searched the forums and didn't get many hits. Much appreciated for the link!
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Re: Tiny Abomination in a Jar

Postby inthedrops » Sun Jun 13, 2010 6:36 am

Cross posting in here to a Video I shared which clearly shows procs for this trinket in action. SoComm and SoV sections so you can see it with both types of seals. You'll notice that it grows REALLY quick with SoV and much slower with SoComm.

http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/forum/index.php?f=2&t=28958&rb_v=viewtopic
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