ICC10: What to wear and why!

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Re: ICC10: What to wear and why!

Postby halabar » Thu Jan 28, 2010 9:25 am

Lieris wrote:
Kisko wrote:I don't see much point in strictly 10m lists, considering that even baddies can pug ICC 25m today.
I'm not exactly at the top progression server (#21 in US), but our PUGs reliably clearing first wing.

May be it will be more useful to create combined list of ICC 10 and ICC 25 gear.

So let's add i264 loot:


No. If you're not a 10 man raider this thread isn't for you, go post on the many 25 man threads.


I can see both points of view, and I'm somewhat stuck in the middle.

But, if the 25-man gear list includes stuff that drops from 10-mans, than it's not an issue. Those who pug 25s occasionally can refer to the 25 man list to compare gear, and also check the 10-man list to see if they are "topped off" for 10-man gearing.
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Re: ICC10: What to wear and why!

Postby sabedoriaclark » Thu Jan 28, 2010 11:33 am

I'm in a 10man strict guild and though there are PuGs on my server clearing 25man I don't have time to raid outside my guild. So I appreciate this 10man guide. As I see it if someone is a 10man raider and happens to luck into a 25man PuG AND luck into a drop then that is a bonus, but not something they should be planning for.
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Re: ICC10: What to wear and why!

Postby honorshammer » Fri Jan 29, 2010 6:59 am

Lieris wrote:I added the Glyph. I still think the heroic Organ is worth getting because of the passive armour, it pulls ahead of our previous trinkets through sheer ilevel difference not because it's well designed.


It doesn't pull ahead. Check out this from Theck's thread on the Trinket:

Theckd wrote:For a slow-swinging boss, the trinket quickly becomes abysmal. You're nearly guaranteed the buff will drop off multiple times, and the average stack size will be low, netting you under 100 stamina. Of course, the armor itself is going to be worth around 170 stamina for a purely physical boss encounter, but there are better trinket options that don't have the severe ramp-up and drop-off difficulties.


And then check this out from user Varuk who actually is using the thing:

Varuk wrote:Marrowgar -- I saw it hit 10 once, and it fell immediately. Bone storm did definitely refresh the stack, but any time he stopped to cast bone spike graveyard there was a very high chance of the stack falling off. I was hoping this fight would be better for it, but it just turned out poor.

Deathwhisper -- Obviously, this isn't a good fight for this trinket. I wore it anyways, just to confirm it. It was awful; it got up to like 3 on the p1 packs. Don't wear the Organ here.

Gunship -- The trinket had a much, much better showing here than I expected. I was on the Gunship captain and I stayed over for two battle-mages each time to imitate hard mode. Each time, it took a moment but the trinket built up to 10 and stayed there. By the time the captain was hitting for actually appreciable amounts of damage I had 10 stacks and it stayed up. I saw it drop once the whole fight, the second time I was over it fell 2/3rds of the way through the phase; I still had a decent amount when he was really rocking me and I had to jump back. Also, I kept up the rocket pack debuff, so he was swinging at the 2.15s swing timer, and it was still staying up quite reliably.

Deathbringer Saurfang -- If the hard mode has a cleave/saber lash mechanic then this would be a great fight for the Organ. If not, not so much. I got up to about 6-8 stacks each time I taunted before I got Rune of Blood. On the frenzy I hit 10 in no time flat, though. Still not a good fight for it.

Rotface -- Tanked the abom, and every time he used slime spray it pretty much fell. A couple times I got lucky and it refreshed just in time; made it up to 8 once. Not a good fight for the proc.

Festergut -- We didn't get to kill him but we did pull him a couple times. (We were having hardcore lag issues for the whole hour we were trying; the moment we pulled we'd have 6-7s latency between hitting the button and the skill firing; evidently the whole Ruin battlegroup was having instance server problems.) From what I saw, it was surprisingly poor. I was tanking 2nd, taunting at the 3rd debuff and by the time he cast Pungent Blight it was only at 4-5 stacks. It then proceeded to fall off when he cast it.

Putricide -- No idea yet; don't expect anything different from Saurfang in p3, though. And I usually abom in p1-p2.
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Re: ICC10: What to wear and why!

Postby Lieris » Fri Jan 29, 2010 8:38 am

Yes I've read all that, I know how bad the stacking proc is (I said as much in the OP) I judge it entirely based on the passive armour. 2130 armour is better than 170 stamina (Brewfest) except possibly on Sindragosa. That huge chunk of armour is going to make you easier to heal on P3 Putricide and Blood Queen where healers are frequently having to move. As the MT on Blood Queen being able to reliably reduce the damage mirrored onto my OT is huge too (thanks to Wrathy for making this observation).

I love stamina but we don't have a decent stamina trinket to pair with the Key. Besides we're going to be entering ICC10 heroic with 45K+ unbuffed HP, while I appreciate you can never have too much HP (especially for progression where mistakes do happen) armour can give you that same margin of error especially as we usually have only 2 healers in 10 mans. I feel comfortable eventually replacing my Ulduar stamina trinket with the Organ so that I take less physical damage.
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Re: ICC10: What to wear and why!

Postby honorshammer » Fri Jan 29, 2010 11:22 am

Lieris wrote:Yes I've read all that, I know how bad the stacking proc is (I said as much in the OP) I judge it entirely based on the passive armour. 2130 armour is better than 170 stamina (Brewfest) except possibly on Sindragosa.


It will vary fight by fight. I'll start trying to pay attention to my TankTotals addon which gives a breakdown of magic versus physical, but I remember for BQL is was about 80/20, so the armor would be worth only 80% of its value via the "new eh" theorycraft.
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Re: ICC10: What to wear and why!

Postby Lieris » Fri Jan 29, 2010 3:05 pm

honorshammer wrote:
Lieris wrote:Yes I've read all that, I know how bad the stacking proc is (I said as much in the OP) I judge it entirely based on the passive armour. 2130 armour is better than 170 stamina (Brewfest) except possibly on Sindragosa.


It will vary fight by fight. I'll start trying to pay attention to my TankTotals addon which gives a breakdown of magic versus physical, but I remember for BQL is was about 80/20, so the armor would be worth only 80% of its value via the "new eh" theorycraft.


Mine was closer to 15% for her presumably from the shadow pulse which while constant isn't particularly dangerous. New EH theorycraft has its place but you need to consider it within the context of the fight. Here the pulse is dangerous to the raid but not to the tanks, what we need to gear for is her melee attacks on the MT and by extension the blood mirror on the OT. When healers are having to run about due to flames or fatal attraction being able to mitigate more of the melee damage on you (and by extension your co-tank) is really powerful especially if it happens early on when healing is strained due to lack of vampires.

As 10 man raiders we need to careful about what theorycraft applies to us and come up with our own. We don't have a full set of every kind of HOT ticking on us, earth shield, beacon etc. in a 10 man situation we use 2 healers for almost every fight rather than the 5 25 man raiders have so being able to mitigate damage to reduce strain on healers so they can help on the raid or be able to survive when they have to move is really valuable. Vampire Council has a decent chunk of magic damage too but again you have 2 healers trying to heal 3 tanks two of which are constantly being meleed for 15K~ AND the raid! Sometimes they have to move out of range even to avoid fireballs and when Keleseth gets empowered both healers want to be focusing on healing the caster tank, the less damage the physical tanks take the better. Although this is another 85/15 split between physical and magic damage armour really wins here.

It's a pity we don't have a decent stamina trinket (to pair with the Key) post-Ulduar for some situations but the Organ is a very good choice even on fights with some magic damage (the exception being Sindragosa because of breathes and the stacking debuff).
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Re: ICC10: What to wear and why!

Postby Halnoth » Fri Jan 29, 2010 4:51 pm

Lieris I would just like to point out that you only need 2 tanks for 10m council. One (we used a warrior b/c of intercept/charge) to tank kele and one to tank the other two.
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Re: ICC10: What to wear and why!

Postby Lieris » Sat Jan 30, 2010 5:12 am

Halnoth wrote:Lieris I would just like to point out that you only need 2 tanks for 10m council. One (we used a warrior b/c of intercept/charge) to tank kele and one to tank the other two.


That's quite impressive with 10 man gear, I'll see if we can try it thanks. Well that doesn't change my core argument and if anything it makes the Organ even better, they don't seem to channel spells at the same time so with two princes wailing on you then maybe you'll get some proc stacks going.
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Re: ICC10: What to wear and why!

Postby Halnoth » Sun Jan 31, 2010 1:42 pm

Lieris wrote:
Halnoth wrote:Lieris I would just like to point out that you only need 2 tanks for 10m council. One (we used a warrior b/c of intercept/charge) to tank kele and one to tank the other two.


That's quite impressive with 10 man gear, I'll see if we can try it thanks. Well that doesn't change my core argument and if anything it makes the Organ even better, they don't seem to channel spells at the same time so with two princes wailing on you then maybe you'll get some proc stacks going.


I don't just do 10mans but at the time I downed them in this manner I had only 1 piece of gear that was got in 25m ICC, the rest were badges and 10m HM equivalent. It doesn't really matter though as I was not taking too much damage overall, I rarely dropped below 60% the whole fight.

I also use the glyph for this fight and was pleased with the results so I would imagine that the organ would be even better.
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Re: ICC10: What to wear and why!

Postby honorshammer » Mon Feb 01, 2010 6:32 am

Lieris wrote:As 10 man raiders we need to careful about what theorycraft applies to us and come up with our own. We don't have a full set of every kind of HOT ticking on us, earth shield, beacon etc. in a 10 man situation we use 2 healers for almost every fight rather than the 5 25 man raiders have so being able to mitigate damage to reduce strain on healers so they can help on the raid or be able to survive when they have to move is really valuable. Vampire Council has a decent chunk of magic damage too but again you have 2 healers trying to heal 3 tanks two of which are constantly being meleed for 15K~ AND the raid! Sometimes they have to move out of range even to avoid fireballs and when Keleseth gets empowered both healers want to be focusing on healing the caster tank, the less damage the physical tanks take the better. Although this is another 85/15 split between physical and magic damage armour really wins here.


That is something I'm going to have to think about more. We generally run every fight with two healers so for 10 man raiders it might be a little different.

BQL is the first time in ICC I've really felt like I was getting rocked as hard as I was in Ulduar. She hits pretty hard.
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Re: ICC10: What to wear and why!

Postby Lieris » Mon Feb 01, 2010 9:31 am

honorshammer wrote:
Lieris wrote:As 10 man raiders we need to careful about what theorycraft applies to us and come up with our own. We don't have a full set of every kind of HOT ticking on us, earth shield, beacon etc. in a 10 man situation we use 2 healers for almost every fight rather than the 5 25 man raiders have so being able to mitigate damage to reduce strain on healers so they can help on the raid or be able to survive when they have to move is really valuable. Vampire Council has a decent chunk of magic damage too but again you have 2 healers trying to heal 3 tanks two of which are constantly being meleed for 15K~ AND the raid! Sometimes they have to move out of range even to avoid fireballs and when Keleseth gets empowered both healers want to be focusing on healing the caster tank, the less damage the physical tanks take the better. Although this is another 85/15 split between physical and magic damage armour really wins here.


That is something I'm going to have to think about more.


Blog about it please or post here, I'd love to know your thoughts :)
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Re: ICC10: What to wear and why!

Postby Lieris » Thu Feb 11, 2010 5:48 pm

Sindragosa related caveat added.
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Re: ICC10: What to wear and why!

Postby Wrathy » Fri Feb 12, 2010 9:09 am

honorshammer wrote:We generally run every fight with two healers so for 10 man raiders it might be a little different.


Do others run with 2 healers? I don't want to derail the thread, or go off on too much of a tangent but Lieris and Honor's subsequent post got me to thinking about what gear you would select for specific fights and It never occured to me that 10 man stricts run with 2 healers.

I'm in almost full 264 and we run with three healers for most of the end of the instance (all of crimson hall, FW hall and Lich King).

It would be interesting to evaluate what gear would be most beneficial given your healing corps. Do you have a druid or not, if you have rolling hots on you, armor is king, if you dont, would you want to be able to soak more so that the next holy light bomb can hit. What are the normal 10 man healing comps?
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Re: ICC10: What to wear and why!

Postby Njall » Fri Feb 12, 2010 9:18 am

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Re: ICC10: What to wear and why!

Postby Shathus » Fri Feb 12, 2010 9:21 am

Wrathy wrote:
honorshammer wrote:We generally run every fight with two healers so for 10 man raiders it might be a little different.


Do others run with 2 healers? I don't want to derail the thread, or go off on too much of a tangent but Lieris and Honor's subsequent post got me to thinking about what gear you would select for specific fights and It never occured to me that 10 man stricts run with 2 healers.

I'm in almost full 264 and we run with three healers for most of the end of the instance (all of crimson hall, FW hall and Lich King).

It would be interesting to evaluate what gear would be most beneficial given your healing corps. Do you have a druid or not, if you have rolling hots on you, armor is king, if you dont, would you want to be able to soak more so that the next holy light bomb can hit. What are the normal 10 man healing comps?


I may not apply to your question since we're not a 10 man strict, just a group that runs one of our 10 mans aside from 25. We have yet to kill Princes or Putricide, but have been running 2 healers for all but Princes so far. Generally with a Disc and Holy priest as the main healers, then it's either been a tree or resto shaman for the 'swing' man. pally and blood DK tanking.
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