Tat's 3.3 10 MAN Loot List!

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Re: Tat's 3.3 10 MAN Loot List!

Postby Tats » Tue Jan 05, 2010 3:39 pm

Please read the changes to the front page, if you are one of the people that requested some more EH love ;)
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Re: Tat's 3.3 10 MAN Loot List!

Postby Lieris » Tue Jan 05, 2010 3:51 pm

Wrathy wrote:DID SOMEONE SAY AVOIDANCE?!?!?

I will agree that there are far too few 10 man specific threads out there, and I know that there are a lot of great 10 man guilds that could benefit from theorycrafting specifically designed for them, so this is nice to see. On to the "debate." In all of those threads that Meloree linked earlier, I was the voice of oposition towards Effective Health stacking. I was and still am a huge supporter of avoidance, and seeing as most of our theory crafting was tuned to 25 man hard modes, which is also what I focus on, we are probably not the most versed in this debate.

However, philosophies and rules of thumb do not change from 10 to 25 man. Theck is correct in his statement that:
Theckhd wrote:Progression gearing strategy is to stack EH to meet or exceed the fight's minimum threshold, and after that stack avoidance to reduce incoming damage, as long as there aren't mechanics of the fight that artificially weaken avoidance (Impale, Bleeds, Magic damage, or other unavoidable damage sources).


This is universal for 10 or 25 man, the only difference is the gear and the size of the hit, progression is progression regardless of instance and size of the raid. The proverbial horse which i beat into the ground on those previously linked threads is already glue, but Theck brought it around one more time. If you value avoidance, it must be after you have ensured that you can survive the burst damage.


Wrathy I love the blog and your posts but you're barking up the wrong tree here. Nobody is advocating avoidance stacking and this is not the place for another EH vs avoidance discussion, that has been done to death.

I bought the trinket and cloak first, now I am saving up badges to buy the verdigris belt and kraken gloves. After that I am playing it by ear, we still need to know Arthas' loot table and I've a hunch he will do an Illidan and drop a BIS helm.
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Re: Tat's 3.3 10 MAN Loot List!

Postby halabar » Tue Jan 05, 2010 4:51 pm

Regarding Unidentifiable Organ, you might want to check Theck's math on the uptime...
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Re: Tat's 3.3 10 MAN Loot List!

Postby Wrathy » Tue Jan 05, 2010 5:29 pm

Lieris wrote:Wrathy I love the blog and your posts but you're barking up the wrong tree here. Nobody is advocating avoidance stacking and this is not the place for another EH vs avoidance discussion, that has been done to death.


I completely agree, and I guess i was a bit verbose, but I was agreeing with the OP, just in a bit more context of why Avoidance is ok (after EH has been established).
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Re: Tat's 3.3 10 MAN Loot List!

Postby Ezikiel » Wed Jan 06, 2010 10:42 am

since i am a 10 man raider, i have been looking for this type of a loot list for a long time, thanks for making it Tats :D
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Re: Tat's 3.3 10 MAN Loot List!

Postby lakhesis » Wed Jan 06, 2010 11:23 am

Wrathy wrote:However, philosophies and rules of thumb do not change from 10 to 25 man. Theck is correct in his statement that:
Theckhd wrote:Progression gearing strategy is to stack EH to meet or exceed the fight's minimum threshold, and after that stack avoidance to reduce incoming damage, as long as there aren't mechanics of the fight that artificially weaken avoidance (Impale, Bleeds, Magic damage, or other unavoidable damage sources).


This is universal for 10 or 25 man, the only difference is the gear and the size of the hit, progression is progression regardless of instance and size of the raid. The proverbial horse which i beat into the ground on those previously linked threads is already glue, but Theck brought it around one more time. If you value avoidance, it must be after you have ensured that you can survive the burst damage.


Personally I'd actually disagree with that.

I'll agree with the general "enough health for worst-gib scenario" thought, but I honestly could not agree that avoidance is equally valuable in a 10 & 25 man. And I do think that 10 mans reward risking-the-gib in a way that 25 mans do not.

In a 10 man, you're gonna be using 1-2 tanks & 2-3 healers. Typically you'll have 2 tanks, 1 tank healer & 1 raid healer, with definite overlap on the healing roles. But based off the typical setup, each tank is only going to get every 2nd cast from a healer. Ok, I'm ignoring beacon/chain-heal/whatever, but my basic point is that you've only got half of one person's attention trying to keep you alive.

In a 25 man, you'll be using anywhere between 1-3 tanks & 5-7 healers... but that said, on any tank-check fight, you'll realistically have a dedicated healer on each tank. You have one person's whole attention, and if they're taking any time out to nick off & raid heal then they're doing it wrong.

IMO there is less room for averaging in a 10 man. Every person, every global cooldown, every bit of damage avoided is more valuable - you just don't have as many of 'em. Hence higher-risk strategies can be ones which end up working out (i.e. avoidance over armour), because while they blow up in your face more frequently they also mean that the tank healer gets a GCD to bubble the rogue with more frequently.

PS. That said, I'd still rate the h-twin valk's ring much higher ;)
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Re: Tat's 3.3 10 MAN Loot List!

Postby Kihra » Thu Jan 07, 2010 12:20 pm

theckhd wrote:Progression gearing strategy is to stack EH to meet or exceed the fight's minimum threshold, and after that stack avoidance to reduce incoming damage, as long as there aren't mechanics of the fight that artificially weaken avoidance (Impale, Bleeds, Magic damage, or other unavoidable damage sources).


One thing I've been thinking about recently is comparative Effective Health. We know that warriors for example are going to be able to tank encounters just fine, despite a rather significant Effective Health difference when compared with paladins.

This makes me wonder if our T10 really is so bad to consider. It's likely that a paladin in full T10 would still have more Effective Health than a warrior in 2pc T10 plus the bonus armor pieces.

If through stamina (and AD's passive mitigation) alone, we're exceeding the fight's minimum threshold, then all we're stacking on top of that minimum threshold is a bunch of unnecessary bonus armor at the expense of extra avoidance.

When my guild did TGOC beasts the very first week it was out, our warrior was clearly under the EH threshold for the fight (he could get gibbed by Icehowl). Meanwhile Wiingman and I were already just fine. Basically we walked into TGOC already over the minimum EH threshold we needed to survive the fight.

We don't know what hard modes are going to be like, but we do know that we have an EH advantage when compared with warriors. In theory doesn't this mean that the bonus armor loss and slight stamina loss from using T10 might just be fine when you factor in the nifty cooldown and the extra avoidance? If we still come out ahead of a warrior wearing max EH gear, don't we know we're ok?
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Re: Tat's 3.3 10 MAN Loot List!

Postby Wrathy » Thu Jan 07, 2010 12:55 pm

Kihra wrote:One thing I've been thinking about recently is comparative Effective Health. We know that warriors for example are going to be able to tank encounters just fine, despite a rather significant Effective Health difference when compared with paladins.

This makes me wonder if our T10 really is so bad to consider. It's likely that a paladin in full T10 would still have more Effective Health than a warrior in 2pc T10 plus the bonus armor pieces....

We don't know what hard modes are going to be like, but we do know that we have an EH advantage when compared with warriors. In theory doesn't this mean that the bonus armor loss and slight stamina loss from using T10 might just be fine when you factor in the nifty cooldown and the extra avoidance? If we still come out ahead of a warrior wearing max EH gear, don't we know we're ok?


Thats why I, and most progression tanks I assume, are hanging on to all of their emblems of frost. I believe i have 178 currently, and I have not spent a single one. I also will not spend a single one till there is a fight where my current 258 gear set does not allow me to be a capable tank. Once that fight comes along, it is time to go shopping. You may be right in your assumption, leaning towards a balance of T10 avoidance and Bonus armor off set pieces may make us even more powerful than we can think of now. Only time will tell though, and for those of us who are properly prepared, we will slap on 6+ new pieces of gear and rock the house...
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Re: Tat's 3.3 10 MAN Loot List!

Postby halabar » Thu Jan 07, 2010 1:06 pm

Wrathy wrote:Thats why I, and most progression tanks I assume, are hanging on to all of their emblems of frost. I believe i have 178 currently, and I have not spent a single one. I also will not spend a single one till there is a fight where my current 258 gear set does not allow me to be a capable tank. Once that fight comes along, it is time to go shopping. You may be right in your assumption, leaning towards a balance of T10 avoidance and Bonus armor off set pieces may make us even more powerful than we can think of now. Only time will tell though, and for those of us who are properly prepared, we will slap on 6+ new pieces of gear and rock the house...


Perhaps the leet progression tanks.. :D or all progression is not created equal.. :?

Being a "progression tank" but still having had the 219 Heart of Iron a 232 neck, 232 weapon, and the rest 245 gear, there are offset items that are certainly worth getting now. (Got the trinket first, and am collecting again now, currently at 53).

If you're in full 258, yeah, it makes sense to wait until you have tokens and have holes that haven't been filled by drops.
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Re: Tat's 3.3 10 MAN Loot List!

Postby Tats » Thu Jan 07, 2010 1:26 pm

Ya, maybe my message became diluted between the responses ;) my stance on gearing (for 10s), and on this guide is:

A) You have to have enough health to live in non-optimal conditions for the encounter you are fighting (2 melee, environmental tick, random debuff tick).

B) Once you are at this point, avoidance becomes much more valuable.

C) The instant-gib-omg-I-got-two-shotted threshold is MUCH lower in a 10 man. Normally, if you are in gear for the same item level raid you are attempting, you will already be at threshold, which brings us back to why I valued avoidance so high to begin with ;)

As far as badges go, I think you could make some purchases and still be safe. The gloves cloak, and belt are BiS for 10 man, and the chestplate is very close. Personally, I picked up the cloak first, and will probably be getting the belt next.
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Re: Tat's 3.3 10 MAN Loot List!

Postby Kihra » Thu Jan 07, 2010 1:32 pm

Wrathy wrote:Thats why I, and most progression tanks I assume, are hanging on to all of their emblems of frost.


Yeah, a couple of quirks of my guild's loot system have prevented me from doing that. Our guild leader was not cool with the idea of taking marks that you wouldn't immediately spend. I can kind of see his point, since it's a bit lame to be stockpiling the T10 marks when you (a) don't even know yet if you want T10 and (b) someone else could use them immediately. That means that even if I hoard badges, I won't have the marks for T10 at the time hard modes open up.

Another quirk of our current loot system is that we are using EPGP, and the cost of loot is incremental, e.g., a delta based off ilvl between what you have in your current slot and what you're buying. However trinkets are full price (and super expensive). Basically you wreck your loot standing by buying a trinket. That led me to go ahead and buy the Corroded Skeleton Key so that I could just put off trinket purchases for a while.

Anyway, I guess my point was it would be interesting for someone to do a mathematical comparison of EH for a warrior in 2pc T10 + bonus armor pieces and a paladin in 4pc T10. This would be interesting at both the 264 and 277 ilvls.

I would not be surprised if the paladin still comes out ahead of the warrior even while wearing full T10.

Plus you're tanking in a skirt (kilt for my dwarven comrades). You can't beat tanking in a skirt.
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Re: Tat's 3.3 10 MAN Loot List!

Postby Lieris » Thu Jan 07, 2010 5:33 pm

There is no reason at all to hold onto frost badges as a 10 man raider, I would go as far as to say that you'd be a fool to hoard them. Saying that "progression" tanks should do this is awful advice. You're not going to get a better cloak, belt or trinket from ICC normal (and heroic IMO) so why not spend them? These are MASSIVE upgrades over anything in TOGC that you will use in all encounters and some of the ICC normal content is not exactly trivial what with the limited attempts.

Again this is from the perspective of a 10 man raider, if you're doing ICC25 and TOGC25 this thread isn't for you.
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Re: Tat's 3.3 10 MAN Loot List!

Postby Kihra » Thu Jan 07, 2010 5:42 pm

Lieris wrote:There is no reason at all to hold onto frost badges as a 10 man raider, I would go as far as to say that you'd be a fool to hoard them. Saying that "progression" tanks should do this is awful advice. You're not going to get a better cloak, belt or trinket from ICC normal (and heroic IMO) so why not spend them? These are MASSIVE upgrades over anything in TOGC that you will use in all encounters and some of the ICC normal content is not exactly trivial what with the limited attempts.

Again this is from the perspective of a 10 man raider, if you're doing ICC25 and TOGC25 this thread isn't for you.


Yeah Lieris, I totally agree with you. A strict 10-man raider should in my opinion be going for the cloak, belt and trinket first. Then it's a question of T10 vs. the bonus armor pieces. I could see that going either way for a 10 man raider.
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Re: Tat's 3.3 10 MAN Loot List!

Postby Lieris » Thu Jan 07, 2010 6:29 pm

Kihra wrote:
Lieris wrote:There is no reason at all to hold onto frost badges as a 10 man raider, I would go as far as to say that you'd be a fool to hoard them. Saying that "progression" tanks should do this is awful advice. You're not going to get a better cloak, belt or trinket from ICC normal (and heroic IMO) so why not spend them? These are MASSIVE upgrades over anything in TOGC that you will use in all encounters and some of the ICC normal content is not exactly trivial what with the limited attempts.

Again this is from the perspective of a 10 man raider, if you're doing ICC25 and TOGC25 this thread isn't for you.


Yeah Lieris, I totally agree with you. A strict 10-man raider should in my opinion be going for the cloak, belt and trinket first. Then it's a question of T10 vs. the bonus armor pieces. I could see that going either way for a 10 man raider.


Sadly assuming heroic mode isn't a joke it's going to take a while to gear up our raid with even the 2 set bonus of T10.264 by which point we'll have access to a lot of off set pieces. Ideally I'd like to use 4 pc T10 with the Kraken gloves but I don't know if it's practical for that reason. Having an ideal gear set is fairly meaningless if you won't get the 4 tokens needed until after heroic Arthas is dead and I'd be doing my guild a disservice if I was hoarding badges for that eventuality instead of making them useful for progress.

I have my next 4+ weeks of badges planned out (got cloak and trinket, buying belt then gloves next) so we'll see, maybe Arthas' loot table will seal the deal either way.
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Re: Tat's 3.3 10 MAN Loot List!

Postby Sapria » Fri Jan 08, 2010 12:22 pm

Great guide, was curious to why you didn't list Spiked Deathdealers or Indestructible Plate Girdle, are they not as good as I thought they were?
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