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Tat's 3.3 10 MAN Loot List!

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Re: Tat's 3.3 10 MAN Loot List!

Postby Tats » Mon Jan 04, 2010 1:21 pm

theckhd wrote:Progression gearing strategy is to stack EH to meet or exceed the fight's minimum threshold, and after that stack avoidance to reduce incoming damage, as long as there aren't mechanics of the fight that artificially weaken avoidance (Impale, Bleeds, Magic damage, or other unavoidable damage sources).


For anyone interested, I fully agree with this. My point was that the incoming threshold in 10mans is far less than it is in 25's, therefore I valued avoidance higher.
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Re: Tat's 3.3 10 MAN Loot List!

Postby Lieris » Mon Jan 04, 2010 3:03 pm

Nikachelle wrote:Well, I disagree with taking the crafted saronite stuff off the list, even if this is for ten man raiders. I'm a ten man raider and I've got the boots, and I'll be getting the legs when I reach revered. I'm spamming the life out of my four alts to get the frost emblems for primordial saronite and yes, purchasing the primordials for the legs is not completely out of range even if you haven't got a single other level 80 other than your paladin. Primordials have dropped to roughly 2k on most servers... that's about 16k for the legs for the primos. Not entirely unheard of.

It's not like the legs are completely unattainable. It just depends on how much you're willing to sacrifice to get them. They are completely accessible to 10 man raiders.


If you're responding to me, I didn't argue at all for taking the crafted legs off the list (that would be ridiculous) just that they are a lot less accessible for 10 man raiders due to limited saronite drops. If you have 22K gold to spend (what it would cost on my realm) and/or a bunch of alts you are willing to cannibalise to feed your main then great but for most people that's way out of reach and will plump for T10 instead.
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Re: Tat's 3.3 10 MAN Loot List!

Postby solidice » Mon Jan 04, 2010 5:05 pm

Tats wrote:My point was that the incoming threshold in 10mans is far less than it is in 25's, therefore I valued avoidance higher.


As a 10-man progression raider I can honestly say that I don't agree with this. I would agree if the bosses hit say 50% as hard in 10-mans, but that's not the case.

You might get me to say "marginally less", or "sort of lower", but avoidance is still pretty low on my gear list. I change my gear a lot based on the boss, but in general I wear my max EH gear for most pulls. I do, however, change how I maximize EH (i.e. I switch from stam to armor for various fights because of magic vs physical dmg ratios of the given boss).

I don't start maximizing my avoidance until healers are having mana problems (GV-HM) or there is a fight mechanic that begs me to (deathbringer saurfang).

In general though, I'm going to modify what Theck said a bit. In my opinion to gear for 10s:

Build enough health so you can live 2.5-3.5 seconds (change that depending on your healers) with unlucky hits, then build avoid or threat (depending on how good your dps is).

The reason is, healers get lag or stuns or they get distracted for 2 seconds by a new mechanic in a totally new fight, etc, and you only have 2 or mb 3 in a 10-man. So you really need to be able to live that few seconds. i.e. your buying your healers time to react and time to learn the fight via stam and armor.

I dunno, mb I'm crazy :D
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Re: Tat's 3.3 10 MAN Loot List!

Postby Lieris » Mon Jan 04, 2010 5:44 pm

That's not true in my experience solidice: 10 man heroic Gormokk and Icehowl were not even close to being the insta-gib machines they were in 25 man heroic. The only comparably dangerous attack we've had to contend with in 10 mans is Anub's freezing slash during phase 3. Reaching "acceptable" health levels in 10 man is very manageable while even with the best gear possible 25 man tanks were getting creamed on NR Beasts.

Other than that I agree with your gearing philosophy. Stamina is of course king but avoidance certainly has a place for some fights and without having to worry about things like an over-grown Magnataur potentially taking us from 100 to 0 in a second we can certainly afford to have some.
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Re: Tat's 3.3 10 MAN Loot List!

Postby solidice » Mon Jan 04, 2010 6:18 pm

Lieris wrote:That's not true in my experience solidice: 10 man heroic Gormokk and Icehowl were not even close to being the insta-gib machines they were in 25 man heroic. The only comparably dangerous attack we've had to contend with in 10 mans is Anub's freezing slash during phase 3. Reaching "acceptable" health levels in 10 man is very manageable while even with the best gear possible 25 man tanks were getting creamed on NR Beasts.


Imo that's a partial truth that gets exaggerated by the number of people who outgear 10s and still run them. Not saying that's you, but I can recall many examples during progression nights in ulduar when I got creamed by things. 10-man Alg in 10-man only gear anyone?

And I'm not saying booo-urns to avoidance. Just keep in mind, in general EH is about buying time. Imo you can never buy enough time for healers to react when they are up against fights they've never even seen videos of.

Once my healers have a "feel" for the damage of a fight, I gear completely differently, but that's not progression. That's farming.
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Re: Tat's 3.3 10 MAN Loot List!

Postby Barathorn » Tue Jan 05, 2010 1:26 am

Nice list. Another thing to add into the sticky as soon as I get a spare moment :)

With regard to gearing, 10 mans are vastly different. I find that once you reach a certain level of stamina for what you are trying to achieve then you generally start to balance things more anyway. I think this is the key to everything, balance your character and choose your gear for each individual situation.
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Re: Tat's 3.3 10 MAN Loot List!

Postby Darkler » Tue Jan 05, 2010 2:15 am

Just a small addition to the list:

Hodirs Rare Cache can contain Shiver, which at least I rate higher than the other 232 weapon on the list. (And when comparing EH it actually have more sta with a blue gem than the non heroic 251 weapons too :))
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Re: Tat's 3.3 10 MAN Loot List!

Postby Tats » Tue Jan 05, 2010 2:53 am

good call, not sure how i missed that one, actually.

thanks ;)
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Re: Tat's 3.3 10 MAN Loot List!

Postby Sheebah » Tue Jan 05, 2010 3:41 am

Very nice list Tats, many thanks for that!

Small suggestion: perhaps add the crafted boots (Boots of Kingly Upheaval) to the list?
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Re: Tat's 3.3 10 MAN Loot List!

Postby Bertman » Tue Jan 05, 2010 4:18 am

Thanks for the list. Would be nice if there was one that values EH higher *hint hint* :wink:

@ Bara; any ETA on Petrus' list?

I don't know, I got sideswiped by family obligations over the holidays and hardly got on here or WoW at all and haven't caught up with Petrus since before Xmas. Don't worry it is coming, its just hectic at the moment. Barathorn
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Re: Tat's 3.3 10 MAN Loot List!

Postby Lieris » Tue Jan 05, 2010 12:28 pm

solidice wrote:
Lieris wrote:That's not true in my experience solidice: 10 man heroic Gormokk and Icehowl were not even close to being the insta-gib machines they were in 25 man heroic. The only comparably dangerous attack we've had to contend with in 10 mans is Anub's freezing slash during phase 3. Reaching "acceptable" health levels in 10 man is very manageable while even with the best gear possible 25 man tanks were getting creamed on NR Beasts.


Imo that's a partial truth that gets exaggerated by the number of people who outgear 10s and still run them. Not saying that's you, but I can recall many examples during progression nights in ulduar when I got creamed by things. 10-man Alg in 10-man only gear anyone?

And I'm not saying booo-urns to avoidance. Just keep in mind, in general EH is about buying time. Imo you can never buy enough time for healers to react when they are up against fights they've never even seen videos of.

Once my healers have a "feel" for the damage of a fight, I gear completely differently, but that's not progression. That's farming.


It's a partial truth but it is at least somewhat true. Algalon is a vicious sod on 10 man but so he is on 25 man and then you had earlier bosses HM Steelbreaker and Ignis pre-nerf which were considerably more likely to kill the tank on 25 man than on 10 man.

EH is the way to go, no question (the margin of error it gives healers is invaluable) I am not arguing that (my current logged out gear is what I typically tank with, I think we gear very similarly!) but we do not need to go anywhere near the extremes 25 man raiders need to and never do the bosses we face feel unfairly tuned like theirs can be. We can afford to match socket bonuses because we don't have ridiculous stuff to contend with like Gormokk RNG lolstomping us in one second were it not for another couple hundred HP.
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Re: Tat's 3.3 10 MAN Loot List!

Postby Tats » Tue Jan 05, 2010 1:33 pm

Sheebah wrote:Very nice list Tats, many thanks for that!

Small suggestion: perhaps add the crafted boots (Boots of Kingly Upheaval) to the list?


Done!

Thanks for the catch ;)
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Re: Tat's 3.3 10 MAN Loot List!

Postby Wrathy » Tue Jan 05, 2010 2:24 pm

DID SOMEONE SAY AVOIDANCE?!?!?

I will agree that there are far too few 10 man specific threads out there, and I know that there are a lot of great 10 man guilds that could benefit from theorycrafting specifically designed for them, so this is nice to see. On to the "debate." In all of those threads that Meloree linked earlier, I was the voice of oposition towards Effective Health stacking. I was and still am a huge supporter of avoidance, and seeing as most of our theory crafting was tuned to 25 man hard modes, which is also what I focus on, we are probably not the most versed in this debate.

However, philosophies and rules of thumb do not change from 10 to 25 man. Theck is correct in his statement that:
Theckhd wrote:Progression gearing strategy is to stack EH to meet or exceed the fight's minimum threshold, and after that stack avoidance to reduce incoming damage, as long as there aren't mechanics of the fight that artificially weaken avoidance (Impale, Bleeds, Magic damage, or other unavoidable damage sources).


This is universal for 10 or 25 man, the only difference is the gear and the size of the hit, progression is progression regardless of instance and size of the raid. The proverbial horse which i beat into the ground on those previously linked threads is already glue, but Theck brought it around one more time. If you value avoidance, it must be after you have ensured that you can survive the burst damage.
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Re: Tat's 3.3 10 MAN Loot List!

Postby kysu » Tue Jan 05, 2010 2:48 pm

Wrathy wrote:But Theck brought it around one more time. If you value avoidance, it must be after you have ensured that you can survive the burst damage.


^follow that

I have only 1 25m toon I play myself all my other toons are 10m geared and will not go into 25m. I know what the OP means by avoidance > w/e I healed 10m plenty of times and "personally IMO" I prefer tanks that stack avoidance more then EH, just for the simple fact they don't require steady spamming, again just a preference take it with a grain of salt.

Also, ty for the list
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Re: Tat's 3.3 10 MAN Loot List!

Postby Flex » Tue Jan 05, 2010 2:53 pm

Wrathy wrote:I will agree that there are far too few 10 man specific threads out there, and I know that there are a lot of great 10 man guilds that could benefit from theorycrafting specifically designed for them, so this is nice to see.


Totally. I am a raid leader for my 10 man guild/friends and it is a pain to get accurate strategies and damage ranges for 10 mans. For all the guff that they seem to take Tankspot does a good job with their 10 man guides, but places like StratFu tend to drop the ball.

Thanks to this list and my own curiosity I wanted to go through and see how I can stand post ICC normal gearing. My rule sets were 2 piece Tier 10 for the set bonus, matching socket colors and both crafted items. The lack of defense on them made me curious as to when I could use both pieces.

For me the optimal gear set up would be:
Lightsworn Helm
Marrowgar's Scratching Choker
Spaulders of the Blood Prince
Sentinel's War Cloak
Choul Commander's Cuirass
Gargoyle Spit Bracers
Lightsworn Handguards
Verdigris Chain Belt
Pillars of Might
Boots of Kingly Upheaval
Loop of the Twin Val'kyr (245)
Ashen Verdict Ring
Unidentifiable Organ
Corroded Skeleton Key
Bonebreaker Scepter
Neverending Winter

End up with 44K health, 32382 Armor and 554 Defense while being hit capped and Expertise Soft capped when using SoV.
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