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Tat's 3.3 10 MAN Loot List!

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Tat's 3.3 10 MAN Loot List!

Postby Tats » Sun Jan 03, 2010 6:34 pm

So, I was waiting for someone to post a 10 man BiS list, but i havent seen one yet. I figured I would (attempt) to provide a list for people like myself, that are in 10 man guilds or only do 10 man content.

I modeled this list by Avoidance~Stam>Armor>Other Stuff, which I feel has the best balance for 10 man content.

Please feel free to point out any errors or suggestions, at the time of writing, I had a splitting headache, so im sure there are plenty of both there ;)

* Since everyone is up in arms about EH, and since several people have requested it, i am going to COLOR CODE the drop location for the top 3 EH pieces in each set. The current format of the links will remain the same.

PURPLE = #1 EH
BLUE = #2 EH
GREEN = #3 EH

I will be adding sets as I get time, and may even clean it up or make a separate list in the near future*

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
HEAD
Sanctified Lightsworn Faceguard Teir10/2
Lightsworn Faceguard Teir10 95 Frost Badges
Headplate of the Honorbound 75 Triumph Badges
Liadrin's Faceguard of Triumph T9.5
Judgement Helmet Onyxia 10
Second Helm of the Executioner Captains Chest. Halls of Reflection H
Liadrin's Faceguard of Conquest T9 50 Triumph Badges

SHOULDER
Sanctified Lightsworn Shoulderguards T10/2
Spaulders of the Blood Princes Prince Valanar ICC 10 Heroic
Lightsworn Shoulderguards T10 60 Frost Badges
Shoulderguards of Enduring Order 45 Triumph Badges
Liadrin's Shoulderguards of Triumph T9.5
Spaulders of the Blood Princes Prince Valanar ICC 10 Normal
Sunreaver Defender's Pauldrons Faction Champions ToC 10 Heroic
Liadrin's Shoulderguards of Conquest T9 35 Triumph Badges

CHEST
Sanctified Lightsworn Chestguard T10/2
Cataclysmic Chestguard 95 Frost Badges
Ghoul Commander's Cuirass Lady Deathwhisper ICC 10 Heroic
Lightsworn Chestguard T10 95 Frost Badges
Ghoul Commander's Cuirass Lady Deathwhisper ICC 10 Normal
Liadrin's Breastplate of Triumph T9.5
Stoneskin Chestplate Toc 10 Anub Heroic

WRIST
Gargoyle Spit Bracers Saurfang ICC 10 Heroic
Gargoyle Spit Bracers Saurfang ICC 10 Normal
Dreadscale Bracers Beasts ToC 10 Heroic
Saronite Swordbreakers Blacksmithing (~2.5k)
Dreadscale Bracers Beasts ToC 10 Normal

HANDS
Gauntlets of the Kraken 60 Frost Badges
Sanctified Lightsworn Handguards T10/2
Veincrusher Gauntlets Blood-Queen Lana'thel ICC 10 Heroic
Lightsworn Handguards T10 60 Frost Badges
Liadrin's Handguards of Triumph T9.5
Veincrusher Gauntlets Blood-Queen Lana'thel ICC 10 Normal
Liadrin's Handguards of Conquest T9 30 Triumph Badges

WAIST
Verdigris Chain Belt 60 Frost Badges
Ironrope Belt of Ymirjar Valithria Dreamwalker ICC 10 Heroic
Belt of the Nether Champion Lord Jaraxxus ToC 10 Heroic
Ironrope Belt of Ymirjar Valithria Dreamwalker ICC 10 Normal
Indestructible Plate Girdle Crafted
Belt of the Nether Champion Lord Jaraxxus ToC 10 Normal
Shieldwarder Girdle 28 Conquest Badges

LEGS
Pillars of Might Crafted
Deathforged Legplates Saurfang ICC 10 Heroic
Sanctified Lightsworn Legguards T10/2
Deathforged Legplates Saurfang ICC 10 Normal
Lightsworn Legguards T10 95 Frost Badges
Liadrin's Legguards of Triumph T9.5
Wyrmguard Legplates 39 Conquest Badges
Liadrin's Legguards of Conquest T9 50 Triumph Badges

FEET
Scourge Fanged Stompers Sindragosa ICC 10 Heroic
Boots of Kingly Upheaval Crafted
Scourge Fanged Stompers Sindragosa ICC 10 Normal
Greaves of the Lingering Vortex Twins ToC 10 Heroic
Spiked Deathdealers Crafted
Black Spire Sabatons Devourer of Souls. Forge of Souls H
Greaves of the Lingering Vortex Twins ToC 10 Normal

NECK
Marrowgar's Scratching Choker Lord Marrowgar ICC 10 Heroic
Marrowgar's Scratching Choker Lord Marrowgar ICC 10 Normal
Fortitude of the Infernal Lord Jaraxxus ToC 10 Heroic
Fossilized Ammonite Choker Captains Chest. Halls of Reflection H
Eskhandar's Choker Onyxia 10
Fortitude of the Infernal Lord Jaraxxus ToC 10 Normal
Shard of the Crystal Forest 19 Conquest Badges

BACK
Sentinel's Winter Cloak 50 Frost Badges
Cloak of Many Skins Festergut ICC 10 Heroic
Cloak of the Unflinching Guardian ToGC 10 Tribute to Insanity
Cloak of Many Skins Festergut ICC 10 Normal

FINGER
Ashen Band of Endless Courage Ashen Verdict Exalted (unless the proc rate increases)
Abomination's Bloody Ring Gunship ICC 10 Heroic
Harbinger's Bone Band Random Drop ICC 10
Abomination's Bloody Ring Gunship ICC 10 Normal
(For Comparison) Ashen Band of Courage Ashen Verdict Friendly
Band of the Twin Val'kyr Twins ToC 10 Heroic
Clutch of Fortification 35 Triumph Badges

WEAPON
Troggbane, Axe of the Frostborne King The Lich King ICC 10 Heroic
Troggbane, Axe of the Frostborne King The Lich King ICC 10 Normal
The Facelifter Professor Putricide ICC 10 Heroic
Bonebreaker Scepter Lord Marrowgar ICC 10 Heroic
Blood and Glory ToGC 10 Tribute to Skill
Bonebreaker Scepter Lord Marrowgar ICC 10 Normal
The Facelifter Professor Putricide ICC 10 Normal
Shiver Hodir Hard Mode. Ulduar 10
Rimefang's Claw Scourgelord Tyrannus. Pit of Saron H

SHIELD
Neverending Winter Gunship ICC 10 Heroic
Neverending Winter Gunship ICC 10 Normal
Aegis of the Coliseum Anub ToC 10 Heroic
The Boreal Guard Ulduar 10 Hodir Hardmode
Aegis of the Coliseum Anub ToC 10 Normal

TRINKETS - STAM (I refuse to list the balebrew trinkets ;P)
Unidentifiable Organ Professor Putricide ICC 10 Heroic
Corroded Skeleton Key 60 Frost Badges
Unidentifiable Organ Professor Putricide ICC 10 Normal
Royal Seal of King Llane Yogg-Saron Ulduar 10
The Black Heart The Black Knight. ToC 5 H

TRINKETS - AVOIDANCE
Purified Onyxia Blood Talisman Onyxia 10
Eitrigg's Oath Faction Champions ToC 10 Heroic
Eitrigg's Oath Faction Champions ToC 10 Normal
Ick's Rotting Thumb Ick. Pit of Saron H
Furnace Stone Ignis the Furnace Master Ulduar 10
Last edited by Tats on Thu Jun 17, 2010 10:46 am, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: Tat's 3.3 10 MAN Loot List!

Postby Meloree » Sun Jan 03, 2010 10:53 pm

Shoulders: The heroic blood princes shoulders are significantly better than the ilvl264 tier. The normal version is comparable to ilvl264 tier, and certainly better than anything from T9.

Chest: Cataclysmic Chestguard is miles better than anything else on that list.

Legs: You didn't include the craftable Pillars of Might. Miles better than anything else on the list.

Rings: Band of the Twin Val'kyr is ranked too low. It's certainly better than normal-mode gunship ring, situationally better than the heroic mode. Harbinger's Bone Band is worse than Gunship heroic ring.

Trinkets: Unidentifiable organ is strictly worse than Skeleton Key.

Overall, I think you're massively undervaluing effective health on those pieces. Time may prove me wrong, but it's pretty unlikely.
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Re: Tat's 3.3 10 MAN Loot List!

Postby Tats » Sun Jan 03, 2010 11:37 pm

Thanks for the comments, however, id love to see so math to back some of that up. I model avoidance alot higher than most stats, because from my experience thus far of ICC (10), its paying off alot better than stacking EH and hoping for the best.

how do you figure the shoulders are significantly better? You gain 24 defense, 74 hit, and 1 socket with them, opposed to 12 stam, 36 str, 55 dodge, and 10 parry with t10/2.

I think the same applies with the Caclysmic Chestguard, while you are gaining alittle over 1100 armor (which granted, equates to around 1.1% mitigation), 23 defense, and a socket, you are losing almost 3.5% pure avoidance, in addition to 12 stam and 39 strength. While this may not be the case with alot of people, Ill take that much avoidance over the armor any day of the week.

The Pillars of might are a solid catch, thanks. Even then I wouldnt say that they are "miles" ahead of the saurfang legs, I will concede that they are better.

In regards to the rings; I would say that is a matter of preference. The ring from twins, and the Gunship ring offer roughly the same amount of mitigation/avoidance, I ranked the Gunship ring slightly higher because it budgeted for hit, and its one of the rare times I actually worry about the stat. The harbinger band catch is solid, that was supposed to be under the HGunship ring, not above it.

I was reticent to rate the organ higher than the badge trinket, considering there isnt alot of information. Considering in ICC it *should* have anywhere between a 82%-92.5~% uptime, I rated it just above. If I find some real math behind it, it will probably change.

Like I said, I appreciate the criticism, and the good catches, but I definitely would like to see some real numbers on some of those calls before I make changes.
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Re: Tat's 3.3 10 MAN Loot List!

Postby Meloree » Mon Jan 04, 2010 12:50 am

Sorry, didn't mean to come off aggressively, it's an excellent gear list, overall.

Math on Unidentifiable Organ. Quick summary: Average uptime and stack size are low. It's basically an armor trinket.

Regarding the valuation of Health and mitigation in comparison to avoidance:
On Progression MT Gearing
Icecrown Radiance
Quick summary: Avoidance is generally a low-value stat for tank survival.

You are, generally speaking, valuing avoidance more highly than most of the posters on this board do, at least in progression, so you might want to consider carefully your position, as this list is then based around contrarian advice.
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Re: Tat's 3.3 10 MAN Loot List!

Postby Fridmarr » Mon Jan 04, 2010 2:00 am

Meloree wrote:Quick summary: Avoidance is generally a low-value stat for tank survival.

You are, generally speaking, valuing avoidance more highly than most of the posters on this board do, at least in progression, so you might want to consider carefully your position, as this list is then based around contrarian advice.

I stack stam as much as the next guy, but I do tend to find myself defending avoidance a lot on these boards. Avoidance is an incredibly powerful stat, they've had to nerf it over and over again so that they could makes bosses that could challenge healers. Avoidance at high levels not only reduces damage taken, but more importantly it also decreases the frequency of burst events.

Now, I'm not suggesting it is better than EH or really interested in starting up the timeless EH vs Avoidance debate, but there is some balance to be had. Icecrown Radiance does hurt a bit because the rate that burst events are removed is lowered, but I still would not recommend giving up significant amounts of avoidance, merely to eek out every drop of EH to be found. Nor would I recommend dropping below an 2-3 hit EH threshold to snag some more avoidance.

I haven't looked over this list, but I do think we need to be careful when we call avoidance a "low-value stat". Comments like that tend to cause people to avoid it at all costs.
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Re: Tat's 3.3 10 MAN Loot List!

Postby Lieris » Mon Jan 04, 2010 7:08 am

Unless later bosses have unavoidable specials or stuns I really don't see why some people are so up on armour and yet down on avoidance, surely they both have value against physical attacks. I think too many on this board are too quick to dismiss T10, I don't think it's that clear cut and saying one piece is "miles better" than another is neither accurate nor helpful.

Whether the Organ is better than the Key isn't particularly relevant, these are our only 2 choices as 10 man raiders and we will be equipping both.
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Re: Tat's 3.3 10 MAN Loot List!

Postby Tats » Mon Jan 04, 2010 10:53 am

haha, Meloree, I totally wasnt trying to be as aggressive as it looks either ;). I just frown upon people saying "this is way better dude", but having 0 factual evidence to back it up. I gave the threads you linked a cursory glance (I have read them before), but I fail to see any debate, everyone is already on the EH train.

Ya frid, thats one of the reasons I defend avoidance alot. This is the way I look at (and explain) avoidance:

you have 40,000 HP, and a mob that hits for 20k. At this point, you will live 2 hits. What is better? 4000 health, or 3% dodge?

I think alot of people undervalue that analysis and try to say "well stacking enough eh will make you last another shot", or try to *math* around it and make it right, but I mean, when you get down to it, thats what it boils down to.

atleast, imo.

Anyway, im not trying to start a fight, we are all on the same team ;P
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Re: Tat's 3.3 10 MAN Loot List!

Postby Kihra » Mon Jan 04, 2010 11:29 am

Tats wrote:Anyway, im not trying to start a fight, we are all on the same team ;P


25-man hard mode tanks do tend to drive these theorycrafting discussions a bit, and their gearing philosophy stems from what has been successful on those 25-man hard mode fights, namely EH gearing.

If you're not doing 25-man hard modes, I don't think EH is so important, because you can easily have enough EH for 25 normal or for 10s while still gearing for threat or more avoidance or whatever you want to do.

For 25 hard modes, however, EH has been the way to go. In TGOC the worst burst damage on tanks involved unavoidable damage. Some examples include Icehowl's Ferocious Butt or Anub's Freezing Slash. It is this tendency on the part of the designers to make the scariest tank damage unavoidable that has led people to devalue avoidance so much.

In general when tank damage is avoidable and the boss specials are happening on the melee swing (Marrowgar's Saber Lash, Gunship Captain's Cleave), the tank shouldn't really be in danger anyway. The healers aren't going to stop healing you just because you are avoiding more Saber Lashes.
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Re: Tat's 3.3 10 MAN Loot List!

Postby Tats » Mon Jan 04, 2010 11:32 am

Well, remember, this post is made by someone that only does 10 mans, for people that do 10 mans. So my philosophy may not be applicable to 25 hardmodes, but that wasnt my intention anyway ;)

And while maybe they wont stop healing, tell that to our resto druids. They notice a big difference between letting someone ride on a single rejuv, opposed to spamming things feverishly just to keep up.
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Re: Tat's 3.3 10 MAN Loot List!

Postby Lieris » Mon Jan 04, 2010 11:49 am

As such it would be nice if this thread stayed for 10 man raiders, there are plenty of other threads for the 25 man raiders. We tend to have a different outlook on gearing born out of having far less choice with items and much less in the way of tank gibbing boss abilities. We also get far fewer saronites (none drop in normal mode) so short of spending a lot of gold telling us that the crafted legs are the best isn't very useful advice.
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Re: Tat's 3.3 10 MAN Loot List!

Postby Nikachelle » Mon Jan 04, 2010 12:02 pm

Well, I disagree with taking the crafted saronite stuff off the list, even if this is for ten man raiders. I'm a ten man raider and I've got the boots, and I'll be getting the legs when I reach revered. I'm spamming the life out of my four alts to get the frost emblems for primordial saronite and yes, purchasing the primordials for the legs is not completely out of range even if you haven't got a single other level 80 other than your paladin. Primordials have dropped to roughly 2k on most servers... that's about 16k for the legs for the primos. Not entirely unheard of.

It's not like the legs are completely unattainable. It just depends on how much you're willing to sacrifice to get them. They are completely accessible to 10 man raiders.
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Re: Tat's 3.3 10 MAN Loot List!

Postby Meloree » Mon Jan 04, 2010 12:03 pm

Kihra wrote:
Tats wrote:Anyway, im not trying to start a fight, we are all on the same team ;P


25-man hard mode tanks do tend to drive these theorycrafting discussions a bit, and their gearing philosophy stems from what has been successful on those 25-man hard mode fights, namely EH gearing.


Fair enough, good point. I've never tried progression 10-mans in 10-man gear. I'll bow out of the discussion.
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Re: Tat's 3.3 10 MAN Loot List!

Postby Tats » Mon Jan 04, 2010 12:19 pm

It doesnt have to be like that, mel ;P I definitely appreciate an opinion, and criticism, just not close minded ones ;)
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Re: Tat's 3.3 10 MAN Loot List!

Postby theckhd » Mon Jan 04, 2010 12:29 pm

Tats wrote:Thanks for the comments, however, id love to see so math to back some of that up. I model avoidance alot higher than most stats, because from my experience thus far of ICC (10), its paying off alot better than stacking EH and hoping for the best.

I think you have that backwards. Stacking avoidance is "hoping for the best," because even with high levels of avoidance you will get hit 4, 5, or 10 times in a row, especially given Icecrown Radiance. Stacking EH is going to be the more stable of the two options.

That said, I don't think anybody is suggesting forgoing all avoidance for small EH gains. There's a balance to be struck, and every tank will have their own opportunity cost threshold. There's a lot of detail on that in the threads Meloree linked, along with a discussion about the avoidance->stamina conversion ratio of different enchants, gems, and socket bonuses.

The example you set up is slightly unfair though. Given a 40k hp tank against a boss that hits for 20k, and the choice between 4k health and 3% avoidance, the 3% avoidance looks like a no-brainer. But it's not, for several reasons:

  1. Environmental damge, which is very common in LK raids. 20k melee + 20k melee + 2k DoT tick = dead tank if you choose 3% avoidance, whereas you live if you choose 4k health.

  2. Your numbers are very far off. A tank with 40k hp is undergeared for Icecrown, but might be about right for ToC10. Let's consider Gormok, since he's one of the primary tank checks. On heroic, he will be hitting that tank for ~13k with melee, ~20k Impale, 7k Impale DoT ticks, and 7k Stomps. Numbers taken from this parse chosen randomly from the first page of "best time" results, and I'm assuming the tank is overgeared and inflating the melee and Impales by around 3k to compensate.

    That tank can take 3 melees without dying, but Impale + Melee + DoT tick will kill them. However, with 4k more life they easily survive that string of attacks. With 3% dodge, they might get lucky and avoid the melee... or they might not.

  3. For Icecrown, things get even worse for avoidance. Ice-chill-well-crown Rad-throne-iance reduces the effectiveness of avoidance in two ways. It reduces the damage intake reduction it affords and reduces its effectiveness at preventing strings of successful attacks (or 'spikes'). In addition to that, the bosses now hit half as hard and twice as often, making spikes less dangerous because they're slightly more spread out. Whereas before we could get back-to-back 20k melees separated by 2 seconds, we now need 4 10k attacks in a period of 3 seconds. That's a 50% increase in the amount of reaction time your healers have, and a reduction in spike probability because it's more probable to take 2 attacks in a row than 4 (p^4 < p^2 for p<1).

    That means that for Icecrown, avoidance is a damage reduction stat first and a spike reduction mechanism second. If the heroic modes actually challenge healer throughput (or more likely, healer mana) then avoidance might still have a shot. But so far it hasn't, and likely won't in any of the normal modes.

    Returning to the numbers, that Icecrown tank should have 55k health or more - many can reach 60k already if they've been lucky with drops. That means it takes 5-6 10k attacks plus some environmental damage to kill us. Again, that's a long time to go without heals, and less punishing on healer reaction time than being two-shot.

Fridmarr asked that we don't re-ignite the "avoidance vs. EH" debate, but you asked for some math and I have no idea how else to provide it without comparing the two. However, I'll settle on saying what I've always said about gearing one way or the other:

Progression gearing strategy is to stack EH to meet or exceed the fight's minimum threshold, and after that stack avoidance to reduce incoming damage, as long as there aren't mechanics of the fight that artificially weaken avoidance (Impale, Bleeds, Magic damage, or other unavoidable damage sources).

That means that if you're in any danger of dying during the fight due to a string of un-avoided attacks, you should not be stacking avoidance yet. Going into the fight with 95% avoidance is meaningless if the boss can two-shot you. This is just as true for 10-man raiding as it is for 25-man raiding.
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Re: Tat's 3.3 10 MAN Loot List!

Postby Meloree » Mon Jan 04, 2010 12:40 pm

Tats wrote:It doesnt have to be like that, mel ;P I definitely appreciate an opinion, and criticism, just not close minded ones ;)


If, as people have suggested, the progression experience in 25man with 25man gear is massively different to the progression experience in 10man with 10man gear, then I have nothing to contribute to the discussion. I don't think I'm particularily closed-minded, I just haven't done applicable theorycraft. If avoidance actually matters in 10-mans, then I almost wish I was playing the strict 10-man game, it sounds like more fun.
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