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Unidentifiable Organ - paging Theck?

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Re: Unidentifiable Organ - paging Theck?

Postby Lieris » Wed Jan 13, 2010 6:21 am

You aren't going to be staying in on heroic Marrowgar during bone storm unless you really want your healers to hate you. The WW will hit for more and apply a bleed, nobody is going to accept "I wanna keep up my trinket procs" as a valid reason.

I really hope this trinket gets redesigned or Arthas 10 drops a tank trinket too. :/
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Re: Unidentifiable Organ - paging Theck?

Postby Shathus » Wed Jan 13, 2010 8:37 am

Most tank item procs seem to be around the 'when you take damage/when struck in combat' concept, the problem being of course we want to avoid taking damage as much as possible. If they changed something like this trinket (and the proc on the AV ring among others) to be 'ever time you're attacked' would that make them worthwhile at all?

Clearly Deathbring Saurfang has gotten this figured out as people with Marks take damage on every attack, regardless of outcome, why can't we as tanks get a similar benefit.

This would still make it less than ideal for tank swap fights, but at least in those fights, you can still take some damage from other mechanics throughout the fight (blood boil/plague cloud, oozes, slime, etc) that would increase the chances to proc items.

With Blizzard saying they like the proc idea for items more, this could go a ways to helping tanks with these items and not just leave them on the shelf.
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Re: Unidentifiable Organ - paging Theck?

Postby Lieris » Wed Jan 13, 2010 9:02 am

If they're going to insist on sticking to chance on being struck by melee hit procs they're going to have to up the proc chances considerably. The ramp up time on this trinket and the poor uptime on the ring make our toys so dull compared to DPSers who are getting nice little boosts and turning into walruses.

Ideally they would completely revise them to something that doesn't scale negatively with avoidance and takes in mind that we're not tanking Patchwerk every fight but I wouldn't hold my breath.
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Re: Unidentifiable Organ - paging Theck?

Postby Gamingdevil » Wed Jan 13, 2010 10:15 am

Lieris wrote:If they're going to insist on sticking to chance on being struck by melee hit procs they're going to have to up the proc chances considerably. The ramp up time on this trinket and the poor uptime on the ring make our toys so dull compared to DPSers who are getting nice little boosts and turning into walruses.

Ideally they would completely revise them to something that doesn't scale negatively with avoidance and takes in mind that we're not tanking Patchwerk every fight but I wouldn't hold my breath.


I'm still wondering why the insist on giving tanks procs. Sure they're "fun", but unreliable. All it does is make sure more spikey really, having good survivability one moment and back to same old, same old the next.
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Re: Unidentifiable Organ - paging Theck?

Postby Lieris » Wed Jan 13, 2010 11:50 am

Gamingdevil wrote:
Lieris wrote:If they're going to insist on sticking to chance on being struck by melee hit procs they're going to have to up the proc chances considerably. The ramp up time on this trinket and the poor uptime on the ring make our toys so dull compared to DPSers who are getting nice little boosts and turning into walruses.

Ideally they would completely revise them to something that doesn't scale negatively with avoidance and takes in mind that we're not tanking Patchwerk every fight but I wouldn't hold my breath.


I'm still wondering why the insist on giving tanks procs. Sure they're "fun", but unreliable. All it does is make sure more spikey really, having good survivability one moment and back to same old, same old the next.


I agree, we don't like the unreliable nature of procs but if Blizzard are going to insist on giving us some on our gear they need to be excellent to compensate for them not being on demand or not them not trigger on being hit by a melee attack. DPSers can easily time the ICD on their trinkets with other abilities because they will proc roughly when they expect them to assuming they're hit capped and they rarely have to stop DPS (some phase changes excepted). We're having to rely on a dice roll within a dice roll within the time in which we are the active tank. The design is an abject failure.
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Re: Unidentifiable Organ - paging Theck?

Postby Varuk » Wed Jan 13, 2010 12:58 pm

So I received this trinket last night in my weekly 10m run. I didn't want it for it's stamina proc, I mostly wanted it to have a second bonus armor trinket to use on fights that armor rocks on, but I did want to figure out how the stamina proc works and whether or not it's actually any good, especially on fights that benefit from bonus armor stacking.

I flew down from Dalaran and tanked a Grove Walker for almost an hour, combat logging the whole thing. Here's the log:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/1awkflxvy5hgwysj/

Conclusions:
- It does proc on full blocks. I saw it do this many, many times.
- It does not proc on parries. I never saw it proc off a parry.
- 60% proc chance on block or hit seems completely accurate.
- I only had a 62% avoidance chance on this mob and he was not debuffed with JotJ like a boss would. On a boss with full raid buffs I'd be pushing 70% avoidance and JotJ would slow his attack speed to 2.4s I expect I'd see a lot less uptime.
-- Even with all that, I only recall seeing a 10-stack twice in that hour. It fell off nonstop.

Doing some more testing under Dalaran, I could not get it to proc from spell hits. (Obviously, the trinket says melee hit, but Blizzard is patently horrible at describing procs so I figured it was worth testing. Case in point, Tiny Abomination in a Jar.)

That said, there are a couple things that could yet save the proc. The first is, all of Theckhd's calculations on this thread assume a 2.4s boss swing speed. But, looking at my 10m parses last night, nobody swings that slow any more. Rotface, Putricide and Festergut with 0 inhales swing at 1.75s on average even after the debuff, Deathbringer Saurfang swings at 1.2s, and Marrowgar's swings are all over the place but averaged at roughly 1.35s. (I suspect Marrowgar is parry haste-able -- the time between his swings ranged from 0.84s to 2.014s with huge variation within that range, and that's already ignoring the periods where he cast his various spells.) The gunship captain's swings were a little slower, averaging at 2.15s between, but this was with 100% uptime of both JotJ and the rocket-pack debuff. I didn't bother looking at Deathwhisper's swing time; it doesn't take a genius to know that no matter what this trinket will suck ass on her. Still, in conclusion, the days of the 2.4s swing timer appear to be well over. It appears that faster swing time is one of the big methods Blizzard used to increase tank DTPS without adversely affecting spike damage too much.

I'm going to wear the trinket through as many of the 25m fights I can tonight, watching it's uptime the whole time, and I'll report back if I see any changes in play compared to what's been so far theorycrafted. Not going to hold my breath, but it'd be nice to see it work out.
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Re: Unidentifiable Organ - paging Theck?

Postby Senador » Wed Jan 13, 2010 1:03 pm

I believe, on a base level, the ICC bosses have the following swing timers pre attack speed debuff:

Lord Marrowgar - 1
Lady Deathwhisper - 2
Gunship Captain - 1.5
Deathbringer Saurfang - 1
Festergut - 1.5 After 3 stacks of Blight with the 20% debuff he was swinging around .9)
Rotface - 1.5
Professor Putricide 1.5 (This is phase 1 and 2. I don't know his phase 3 attack speed).
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Re: Unidentifiable Organ - paging Theck?

Postby Varuk » Wed Jan 13, 2010 1:18 pm

That sounds about right in my experience. Also, the only boss I've seen that has any indication of being parry-hasteable is Lord Marrowgar, whose swing timer flies all over the place throughout the fight.

Also, checking my Putricide log, his attack speed definitely increases in p3. It looks like 1.0s before debuff, 1.2s with debuff.
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Re: Unidentifiable Organ - paging Theck?

Postby Varuk » Wed Jan 13, 2010 8:54 pm

Well, most of the way through my 25m clear and here's the lowdown so far:

Marrowgar -- I saw it hit 10 once, and it fell immediately. Bone storm did definitely refresh the stack, but any time he stopped to cast bone spike graveyard there was a very high chance of the stack falling off. I was hoping this fight would be better for it, but it just turned out poor.

Deathwhisper -- Obviously, this isn't a good fight for this trinket. I wore it anyways, just to confirm it. It was awful; it got up to like 3 on the p1 packs. Don't wear the Organ here.

Gunship -- The trinket had a much, much better showing here than I expected. I was on the Gunship captain and I stayed over for two battle-mages each time to imitate hard mode. Each time, it took a moment but the trinket built up to 10 and stayed there. By the time the captain was hitting for actually appreciable amounts of damage I had 10 stacks and it stayed up. I saw it drop once the whole fight, the second time I was over it fell 2/3rds of the way through the phase; I still had a decent amount when he was really rocking me and I had to jump back. Also, I kept up the rocket pack debuff, so he was swinging at the 2.15s swing timer, and it was still staying up quite reliably.

Deathbringer Saurfang -- If the hard mode has a cleave/saber lash mechanic then this would be a great fight for the Organ. If not, not so much. I got up to about 6-8 stacks each time I taunted before I got Rune of Blood. On the frenzy I hit 10 in no time flat, though. Still not a good fight for it.

Rotface -- Tanked the abom, and every time he used slime spray it pretty much fell. A couple times I got lucky and it refreshed just in time; made it up to 8 once. Not a good fight for the proc.

Festergut -- We didn't get to kill him but we did pull him a couple times. (We were having hardcore lag issues for the whole hour we were trying; the moment we pulled we'd have 6-7s latency between hitting the button and the skill firing; evidently the whole Ruin battlegroup was having instance server problems.) From what I saw, it was surprisingly poor. I was tanking 2nd, taunting at the 3rd debuff and by the time he cast Pungent Blight it was only at 4-5 stacks. It then proceeded to fall off when he cast it.

Putricide -- No idea yet; don't expect anything different from Saurfang in p3, though. And I usually abom in p1-p2.

Here's a link to the parse, if anyone cares to go through it:
http://worldoflogs.com/reports/gg4cm7so ... details/2/


Basically, with the increased attack speed of the ICC bosses + the Chill of the Throne debuff a boss can barely keep the stack up if all they do is attack. No movement, no spells, nothing. If the fight has any casts, any tank swapping, any serious movement, expect the stack to fall off before it goes anywhere at all. Definitely pretty underwhelming at the moment. For the stamina aspect of this to actually be a valuable part of this trinket either we're either going to need to see more completely boring static nonstop autoattack bosses, or it's going to need a buff, preferably in stack duration. In my eyes, the long ramp up time is enough of a penalty to make it's stacking buff not overpowered -- the fact that it falls off nonstop on any fight ever is just icing on the urinal cake.

I'm still happy to have it because of the bonus armor -- it's nice to have a second bonus armor trinket from time to time -- but any illusions that the secondary effect is worth anything at all have been thoroughly dispelled in my eyes.
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Re: Unidentifiable Organ - paging Theck?

Postby theckhd » Thu Jan 14, 2010 7:18 am

Varuk wrote:That said, there are a couple things that could yet save the proc. The first is, all of Theckhd's calculations on this thread assume a 2.4s boss swing speed. But, looking at my 10m parses last night, nobody swings that slow any more.

Just last page I gave simulated values for both a 2.4 speed and a 1.0 speed boss. If we can agree on a reasonable amount of avoidance to use, I can make a table/plot of uptime, mean stack size, and ramp-up time vs. boss swing speed to show the progression between those two extremes.
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Re: Unidentifiable Organ - paging Theck?

Postby Varuk » Fri Jan 15, 2010 12:55 pm

theckhd wrote:
Varuk wrote:That said, there are a couple things that could yet save the proc. The first is, all of Theckhd's calculations on this thread assume a 2.4s boss swing speed. But, looking at my 10m parses last night, nobody swings that slow any more.

Just last page I gave simulated values for both a 2.4 speed and a 1.0 speed boss. If we can agree on a reasonable amount of avoidance to use, I can make a table/plot of uptime, mean stack size, and ramp-up time vs. boss swing speed to show the progression between those two extremes.
Shows me for skimming after the first page =/. Sorry Theckhd, I didn't see your post there.

Still, I don't see much point in theorycraft for it any more. Most bosses have enough attack speed to get decent stacks of it at the moment, they just almost all have spells they cast that artificially lower that attack speed and cause it to be very likely to fall. The 2.4s swing time tables are probably the most accurate in the sense that a boss with a fast attack speed who casts a spell probably only gets 4 attacks in for that 10s period.

Basically, without modeling the spells they cast, there's not much point in doing additional modeling, and even with that built in I'm not certain it'd show us much of anything that we can't already see looking at parses and experiences, you know?
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Re: Unidentifiable Organ - paging Theck?

Postby Trevize » Tue Jan 19, 2010 8:41 am

I noticed very similar results as Varuk. When I picked up the trinket, I just think of it as an armor trinket...and any stamina I get is just bonus.

On a side note, it has a 100% up time on multi-mob trash tanking! Unfortunately there aren't really any consistent multi-mob boss fights. All in all, great for big physical damage fights for the raw armor. Really bad for heavy caster fights.
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Re: Unidentifiable Organ - paging Theck?

Postby Khayne » Tue Jan 26, 2010 5:09 am

Go go tanking whole blood council? :P
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Re: Unidentifiable Organ - paging Theck?

Postby Roots » Tue Jan 26, 2010 9:02 am

Trevize wrote:When I picked up the trinket, I just think of it as an armor trinket...and any stamina I get is just bonus.

I'm of the same school of thought, and plan on picking it up to offset the lack of bonus armor leather pieces :/
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Re: Unidentifiable Organ - paging Theck?

Postby Sathoris » Tue Jan 26, 2010 9:59 am

I still think this trinket fits more on a druid then on a warr/dk/paladin.

Due to druid's low avoidance in ICC, the chances to lose the stacks is lower then any of the other tanking classes.

For anyone else, I'm seeing it as an Armor trinket with a gimped or let's say ... not so reliable stamina increase proc.
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