Spending Badges in 3.3

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Re: Spending Badges in 3.3

Postby bldavis » Fri Mar 12, 2010 11:09 am

Wrathy wrote:
Barathorn wrote:Once you have all of the gear for the gear sets you need, then you can sell saronites to pay for your levelling in Cat


How does one procure said leveling services. I HATE LEVELING...

step one: transfer said toon to my server
step two: give me your gold and transfer your toon to my account
step three: wait a month while i level your toon
step four: pay to get your toon back
step five: delete this post so we dont get banned
step six: profit?
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Re: Spending Badges in 3.3

Postby theckhd » Mon Mar 15, 2010 6:56 am

By the way, someone noted that my opportunity-cost analysis of the tier items was no longer correct since the armor boost. I re-ran the numbers, just reposting them here since it's relevant to this thread.

theckhd wrote:That's easy enough to fix. Here's a repost with the numbers and commentary updated:

Let's take each item, and compare it to its equal-ilvl tier equivalent. Instead of listing all the stats on Cataclysmic Chestguard, we list them as compared to Sanctified Lightsworn Chestguard:

Code: Select all
Item                     STA      Armor     Avoid   STR   Hit  EXP     Av/St Ratio
Cataclysmic Chestguard    18     -14 (-1)    -46   -39    0    82      2.7

In other words, by 'upgrading' from T10.264 to Cataclysmic, you gain 18 stam, and 82 expertise, but lose 131 total avoidance rating (def + dodge + parry), 1 "effective stamina" worth of Armor (at a 10:1 conversion ratio), and 39 strength.

The avoidance gain per stamina ratio is as Meloree and I calculated it in the Progression MT Gearing thread, or in Digren's guide. For those unfamiliar, it's the ratio of avoidance lost to effective stamina gained by trading one item for another. In this case, we lose 46 avoidance and gain 18-1=17 stamina by "upgrading" the T10 chest to Cataclysmic, for a ratio of 46/(18-1) = 2.7.

In general, the lower this ratio, the "better" the trade for stamina - if you could trade 10 avoidance for 100 stamina (ratio of 0.1), you'd probably do it. If you had to trade 100 avoidance for 10 stamina (ratio of 10.0), you probably wouldn't.

Most progression tanks make gem choices at ratios of around 1.5-2.0 (i.e., if the ratio is less than that, it's a "good" trade and they take it).

We can repeat this for all of the items of interest. I'm assuming 30 stam gems in every socket.

264-ilvl baseline:
Code: Select all
Item  (264)              STA      Armor     Avoid   STR   Hit   EXP     Av/St Ratio (lower is better)
Broken Ram Skull Helm     -4       0 (0)      -31   -39    74     0       ----

Boneguard Commander's P.  18       0 (0)       -8     0     0     0      0.4444

Cataclysmic Chestguard    18     -14 (-1)     -46   -39     0    82      2.7
Blightborne Warplate      18   -1190 (-119)    62   -39    58     0      0.6

Gauntlets of the Kraken   18       0 (0)       31    28   -61     0      ---
Taldaram's Plated Fists   18   -1008 (-101)    93    28   -61     0      1.1

Pillars of Might          18    1190 (108)    -54   +39     0   -82      0.4286
Legguards of Lost Hope    18       0 (0)        0     0    74   -82      0
Deathforged Legplates(H)  18       0 (0)       16     0     0   -24      ---


277-ilvl baseline:
Code: Select all
Item  (277)              STA      Armor     Avoid   STR   Hit   EXP
Broken Ram Skull Helm     -4       0 (0)      -36   -44    85     0      ---

Boneguard Commander's P.  18       0 (0)       -8     0     0     0      0.4444

Cataclysmic Chestguard   -14    -283 (-28)    -68   -60     0    82      ---
Blightborne Warplate      18   -1344 (-134)    68   -44    69     0      0.6
   
Gauntlets of the Kraken   -5    -213 (-21)     21    17   -69     0      0.8
Taldaram's Plated Fists   18   -1148 (-115)   107    33   -69     0      1.1

Pillars of Might         -14    1088 (99)     -82   +23     0   -93      0.9647
Legguards of Lost Hope    18       0 (0)        0     0    85   -93      0


The results here are a bit surprising, actually. Let's look at each in detail.

------

Helm: (no change) The helm is a no-brainer, you're trading survivability (both stam and avoidance) for threat (hit) by using the off-set item. If you're near the hit cap from other gear, the helm becomes even less of an upgrade. So the helm is easily a BiS item, and should form the foundation of any ideal gear set-up for progression.

Shoulders: (no change) I've heard over and over that the Boneguard Commander's Pauldrons had more stamina than the tier piece, and thus were the better choice. But all of the off-set items have more stamina. What makes the shoulders great is that they sacrifice the least amount of other stats to get that 18 stam.

On the other hand, since they're almost identical, it makes this a very simple trade to make. It's 18 stamina for 8 parry rating and a set bonus. In addition, there's no armor piece for the shoulder slot. This makes T10 shoulders a reasonably strong contender for the second piece despite the weak trade ratio, since it's versatile.

Chest: This surprised me as well, but for a different reason. Blightborne Warplate is a hit item, but you sacrifice enough STR for it that it's only a weak upgrade in total threat. It's also got the highest avoidance/stam trade ratios of any of the off-set items. No reason to use Blightborne outside of convenience (i.e. if you get it, you can use your badges on other slots to gear up faster).

(NEW) Cataclysmic was originally a huge trade of avoidance for armor. The change to the tier chest reverses that slightly - it's now a trade of a chunk of avoidance for a tiny amount of stam. The avoidance cost is pretty steep at 2.7, above the ratio most tanks would consider for pure stamina trades. At the 277 level, it's now a flat-out EH loss in both stam and armor.

The saving grace is that the 82 expertise is enough to get you to soft-cap single-handedly, and it has defense on it. This is really what this slot will come down to, I think. There are two things that are pretty hard to find on T10 gear: defense and expertise, and "the Cat" has you covered in both departments. Since the crafted pieces also lack defense, you may be forced into using the Cat just to maintain uncrittability.

Before the change, this category was a hands-down victory for the Cat; now it's a much closer race, and will really hinge on whether you can find enough expertise and defense on the rest of your gear to wear the tier chest. At the 277 ilvl, it's a flat-out win for the tier chest if you can cover the defense gap.

Gloves: (NEW) Another little surprise here, as each item has its place. The tier item has a good chunk of hit, which makes it nice for threat. With the addition of armor to the tier gloves, the choice between Kraken and 264 tier comes down to 18 stam and 31 avoidance vs 61 hit rating. Since hit is also in short supply, this is a reasonable place to pick it up since the cost is simply 31 avoidance rating after the flat 18 stam penalty you pay for using tier. At the 277 level the tier piece wins hands-down.

Plated Fists are simply a trade-off of about 1k armor for 60-100 avoidance rating. Most people won't find that trade compelling outside of an avoidance set.

Note that out of the three slots where you can stack armor, gloves give you the smallest amount. On the other hand, they're also the best trade-in ratio, and represent the lowest opportunity cost.

Legs: This is another interesting slot. Pillars give you massive EH and some STR, but sacrifice avoidance and expertise to get there. It has an excellent trade ratio at the 264 level and a reasonable one at 277. If you're already soft-capped on expertise, they're roughly threat-neutral.

The Legguards of Lost Hope are basically identical to T10, but trade the expertise for hit. If you're soft-capped on expertise but not hit-capped, this makes them threat positive with no loss of avoidance. This makes the T10 Legs a pretty decent choice if you're not stacking armor in every slot, as it's just a threat trade (hit for expertise + set bonus).

(NEW) As an interesting side note, let's look just at Pillars and Cataclysmic. If you had to choose one of these to replace T10, Pillars is almost hands-down the better choice. It sacrifices slightly more avoidance but gives you significantly more armor, making the opportunity cost much better. Both pieces are roughly threat-neutral provided you're soft-capped without either - the expertise gain from Cataclysmic offsets the STR loss, and the STR gain on Pillars offsets the expertise loss.

Cataclysmic is superior only if:
  1. You're below the expertise soft-cap, in which case it's threat positive, or
  2. You lose uncrittability by using Pillars

Looking back at what I said about "optimum" sets:

Theck wrote:
  • The EH enthusiast - T10 Helm/Shoulders, Cat/Kraken/Pillars for massive Armor. The off-set shoulders can be subbed in if you don't want the set bonus.
  • The Stam enthusiast - T10 Helm/Chest, Boneguard/Taldaram/LostHope. Unconcerned with armor, they pick up the 18 stam bonuses while trading as little avoidance as possible. Possible variant is T10 Helm/Chest + Boneguard/Taldaram/Pillars if they care about armor a little bit.
  • The Avoidance Lover - T10 Helm/Shoulders/Chest/Legs, Taldaram's gloves. Gives you the highest avoidance possible along with the 4-piece bonus.
  • The Tightrope Walker - T10 Helm/Chest + Boneguard/Kraken/Pillars. This guy likes balance, and makes the most efficient ratio trades for armor (Kraken/Pillars)

....

Head/Shoulders/Chest also gives the highest versatility. I can swap from "max EH" with Cat/Kraken/Pillars to a more avoidance-heavy set-up by swapping in Lost Hope and T10 Chest. I can also swap to "max Stam" which uses Head/Chest and 3 drops (or Head/Shoulders and 3 drops).


Now that the gloves are strong contenders, I could see them included in any of these set-ups, making it much easier to pick up the 2-piece bonus. I still think the helm is strong enough to be the centerpiece of all of these sets. But to pick up the set bonus, choosing shoulders or gloves will really come down to what other pieces you have access to or already have.

Chest is now also an option, but in my experience it's hard to use both the tier chest and Pillars without dropping below the defense threshold. Once I have another mark I'll pick it up, but it's going to be tough to make use of it until I get some more defense from 277 gear.

For my personal set-up, I still use Helm/Shoulders most of the time. However, for fights where taunts are important I often use Broken Ram Skull and tier gloves to give me a large bump in hit rating. I've been very tempted to swap the gloves into my primary set for the 2-piece (running Helm/Gloves instead of Helm/Shoulders) just to get a little more reliability on pulls. The trade is 39 avoidance and 28 STR for 61 hit rating, which seems reasonably fair.
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Re: Spending Badges in 3.3

Postby halabar » Mon Mar 15, 2010 9:20 am

Well, according to TheckTheory, looks like I'm a EH enthusiast, but not by choice, more by no other options.

Just crafted the Pillars (guild provided the Saronite for me to buy the pattern), so my gearing is currently:

245 helm, 251 tier shoulders, Cat chest, EoF belt, Kraken, and Pillars/Lost-Hope. (The boots are 245, but I still don't see the benefit of spending 8k+ on the crafted boots to gain 600 health, unless I drop enough hit in other areas where that would be a benefit).

I should have the EoF by the end of the week to get the 251 helm, so after that, it's all in the hands of RNG, nothing else I can do for this toon with EoF. (I'm likely going to be selling Saronites after that, or selling crafted gear, as I go ret infrequently enough that I don't want to burn EoF on Ret gear, already spent too much on some Ret boes).

If I ever see the 264 offset helm and shoulders drop, and I don't have marks, I might try an all offset gearset, but RNG hates me, so...

I'm annoyed that my hunter has been able to pass Halabar in GS, even though Halabar is my main. Going weeks without seeing any of the drops I need from ICC is getting tiring. You would think after 8 weeks that one of the 4 drops I need from the first 4 (x2) bosses would show up..
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Re: Spending Badges in 3.3

Postby Milius » Mon Mar 15, 2010 11:45 am

Just looking for a bit of advice with regards to the crafted Pillars of Might compared to my current ones, Any input as to whether they are worth getting?
As for the loss in Expertise I will be getting the Cata chestpeice within a week.

Much thanks in advance

Armoury link : http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-feed. ... &cn=Milius
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Re: Spending Badges in 3.3

Postby halabar » Mon Mar 15, 2010 12:28 pm

Milius wrote:Just looking for a bit of advice with regards to the crafted Pillars of Might compared to my current ones, Any input as to whether they are worth getting?
As for the loss in Expertise I will be getting the Cata chestpeice within a week.

Much thanks in advance

Armoury link : http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-feed. ... &cn=Milius


The Pillars are worth getting unless you have the 277 tier legs, and even then are useful for some gearsets. Only question about the pillars is if you can afford them.

Basically, I'd spend badges on the Cata, gold on the Pillars. Get Cata first if you don't have gold.
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Re: Spending Badges in 3.3

Postby auxiliary » Mon Mar 15, 2010 2:04 pm

auxiliary wrote:Long time reader, first time poster looking for some advice.

Here's my current gear out...

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-shee ... t&cn=Fykel

Our guild is consistently getting to Putricide in 10's and to Festergut in 25's each week now, but even though we've downed Saurfang at least 6 times, we've never seen the mark I need.

I'm currently sitting on a huge 246 frost emblems and not really sure what I should upgrade. The T10 shoulders are meh since I haven't seen a mark (and probably wouldn't win the roll against the 4 other pallies) so I can wait for Saurfang's to drop. Kraken on the other hand seems like a huge upgrade, the T10 gloves seem weak without the mark and I doubt I would buy the shoulders to get 2-piece.

What do you guys think? Would you just buy the T10 gloves/shoulders for the 2-piece now since I'll get a mark eventually. Or would you purchase kraken and just wait till I have a mark to save up another 60 emblems (if I don't already have em)?

Since I have already a decent chest, helm and pants it doesn't seem like a good use of emblems/gold to get pillars, or cat.

Thanks for the advice in advance.


No one have any advice for me from this previous post?
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Re: Spending Badges in 3.3

Postby halabar » Mon Mar 15, 2010 5:17 pm

auxiliary wrote:
auxiliary wrote:Long time reader, first time poster looking for some advice.

Here's my current gear out...

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-shee ... t&cn=Fykel

Our guild is consistently getting to Putricide in 10's and to Festergut in 25's each week now, but even though we've downed Saurfang at least 6 times, we've never seen the mark I need.

I'm currently sitting on a huge 246 frost emblems and not really sure what I should upgrade. The T10 shoulders are meh since I haven't seen a mark (and probably wouldn't win the roll against the 4 other pallies) so I can wait for Saurfang's to drop. Kraken on the other hand seems like a huge upgrade, the T10 gloves seem weak without the mark and I doubt I would buy the shoulders to get 2-piece.

What do you guys think? Would you just buy the T10 gloves/shoulders for the 2-piece now since I'll get a mark eventually. Or would you purchase kraken and just wait till I have a mark to save up another 60 emblems (if I don't already have em)?

Since I have already a decent chest, helm and pants it doesn't seem like a good use of emblems/gold to get pillars, or cat.

Thanks for the advice in advance.


No one have any advice for me from this previous post?


Well, it all depends. It's pretty clear what gear is considered "best", and Theck's writeup above should really be all the guide you need. Upgrade your weakest slot first. We are all going to "waste" badge purchases because a better offset item drops later, or "waste" offset because we eventually need to get tier items (or crafted). But by sitting on the fence, you are loosing value in your EoF, either in gold as prices drop, or in EH that might make encounters easier.

Myself, I would go gloves/shoulders for 2-pc, and sell saronites with the rest, if you don't think the Cat or Pillars are worth it.

Right now, your are sitting on 25k+ of Saronites, so you could go that way too.. :-) If you are sitting on those EoF, and don't notice a difference without the upgrades you could be getting, just buy Saronites with the EoF and sell them. :wink:

Really, with the gear choices we have with badge/crafted vs tier, we are all going to be collecting what we can, and juggling between those sets that Theck outlined.

So, what I am really saying is "do something". Either path is acceptable.
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Re: Spending Badges in 3.3

Postby Knuckls » Tue Mar 16, 2010 10:53 am

I just wanted to say thanks to Theck and Meloree for the numbers but especially halabar for your input in this thread. I am in a very similar situation (10 man raider however my limited access to 25 man is due to personal time restriction) and your gearing choices have really helped me out. I thought I'd just add what I've done to help out others.

Our group is currently working on Sindragosa with all other fights pretty much on farm and I've seen almost every tanking drop there is in 10 man (except for Marrowgar's necklace :evil: In fact I'd rather not discuss necklace drops.... )

For my gearing strategy, I've gone with all offset bonus armor pieces (Cloak, Cat, Kraken, Belt, Pillars) as well as the stamina trinket from badges. I also have the crafted boots and the T10 (251) hat, and will pick up the shoulders for the set bonus this week to swap in for my Princes shoulders when I need the extra pewpew. I have noticed a little bit of a threat issue lately as some of my dps is in 25 man gear, however that's mostly covered by having a hunter and rogue in the group for MD's. The only time I tend to have trouble is while pulling 2 Princes (I hate those guys and their little spin move around you). I also got lucky in a pug and won Satrina's, so I swap that and the Unreliable Organ around depending on the fight, however up until last weekend I was still using a Brewfest trinket for my 2nd stam.

This strategy has worked great for me and our group, hope it helps some of you out :mrgreen:

My armory link is below.
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Re: Spending Badges in 3.3

Postby lucem » Tue Mar 16, 2010 11:11 am

Knuckls wrote:I just wanted to say thanks to Theck and Meloree for the numbers but especially halabar for your input in this thread. I am in a very similar situation (10 man raider however my limited access to 25 man is due to personal time restriction) and your gearing choices have really helped me out. I thought I'd just add what I've done to help out others.

Our group is currently working on Sindragosa with all other fights pretty much on farm and I've seen almost every tanking drop there is in 10 man (except for Marrowgar's necklace :evil: In fact I'd rather not discuss necklace drops.... )

For my gearing strategy, I've gone with all offset bonus armor pieces (Cloak, Cat, Kraken, Belt, Pillars) as well as the stamina trinket from badges. I also have the crafted boots and the T10 (251) hat, and will pick up the shoulders for the set bonus this week to swap in for my Princes shoulders when I need the extra pewpew. I have noticed a little bit of a threat issue lately as some of my dps is in 25 man gear, however that's mostly covered by having a hunter and rogue in the group for MD's. The only time I tend to have trouble is while pulling 2 Princes (I hate those guys and their little spin move around you). I also got lucky in a pug and won Satrina's, so I swap that and the Unreliable Organ around depending on the fight, however up until last weekend I was still using a Brewfest trinket for my 2nd stam.

This strategy has worked great for me and our group, hope it helps some of you out :mrgreen:

My armory link is below.


i had the neck drop last saturday, yet out of like 5 attempts the bonebreakers scepter eludes me! the shield has dropped by luck sucks. Btw nice to see another hyjal tank
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Re: Spending Badges in 3.3

Postby halabar » Tue Mar 16, 2010 12:37 pm

Knuckls wrote:I just wanted to say thanks to Theck and Meloree for the numbers but especially halabar for your input in this thread. I am in a very similar situation (10 man raider however my limited access to 25 man is due to personal time restriction) and your gearing choices have really helped me out. I thought I'd just add what I've done to help out others.

Our group is currently working on Sindragosa with all other fights pretty much on farm and I've seen almost every tanking drop there is in 10 man (except for Marrowgar's necklace :evil: In fact I'd rather not discuss necklace drops.... )

For my gearing strategy, I've gone with all offset bonus armor pieces (Cloak, Cat, Kraken, Belt, Pillars) as well as the stamina trinket from badges. I also have the crafted boots and the T10 (251) hat, and will pick up the shoulders for the set bonus this week ...


I wonder how many of us 10-man tanks are sitting there with that same gearset from crafted/EoF, waiting for the same silly drops...

The adventure begins again tonight for a new week of RNG Follies.
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Re: Spending Badges in 3.3

Postby Barathorn » Wed Mar 17, 2010 5:23 am

halabar wrote:I wonder how many of us 10-man tanks are sitting there with that same gearset from crafted/EoF, waiting for the same silly drops...

The adventure begins again tonight for a new week of RNG Follies.


I don't have quite the same level of gear as Halabar as EoF come pretty slowly to me but give it a week or two and I will. Then I will be selling saronites to fund leveling engineering without mining in the expansion [My miner just never gets played].

I will be happy with a 251/264 level of gear across the board.

The chances of the RNG being kind enough for that to happen? Slim knowing my luck.

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Re: Spending Badges in 3.3

Postby halabar » Wed Mar 17, 2010 8:31 am

Barathorn wrote:I don't have quite the same level of gear as Halabar as EoF come pretty slowly to me but give it a week or two and I will. Then I will be selling saronites to fund leveling engineering without mining in the expansion [My miner just never gets played].

I will be happy with a 251/264 level of gear across the board.

The chances of the RNG being kind enough for that to happen? Slim knowing my luck.

Barathorn


Well, that's the thing, for us that are RNG-challenged (that might be a good guild name), it's all just a grindfest for our badgegear+2pcT10. Once you get that, it's just waiting for the shield/mace/neck/bracers to drop. Haven't seen any of them drop for weeks. Beginning to blame the RL who forms the raids. Since the there is some seed number involved, I want someone else to start the raid group, and enter the instance earlier.

Last night was another ICC10 with no tank drops (I failed at kiting in Rot, so we are stuck there, see frustrations thread for more on that..).
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Re: Spending Badges in 3.3

Postby Shathus » Wed Mar 17, 2010 10:44 am

My group has gotten pretty lucky with the 10 man drops. Lower Spire has dropped pretty much all tank items multiple times (except the neck, never seen that), but for the love of god, 25 needs to drop a damn token. Otherwise I'm like most of the rest, all emblem/crafted gear + helm/shoulders T10.251

I did get The Facelifter from Putricide last night. While I'm already soft exp capped with The Cat, I'm going to use it over the Marrowgar mace, just because I like the look of it better... is that wrong? heh

swords > maces =P
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Re: Spending Badges in 3.3

Postby Knuckls » Thu Mar 18, 2010 11:53 am

Shathus wrote:My group has gotten pretty lucky with the 10 man drops. Lower Spire has dropped pretty much all tank items multiple times (except the neck, never seen that), but for the love of god, 25 needs to drop a damn token. Otherwise I'm like most of the rest, all emblem/crafted gear + helm/shoulders T10.251

I did get The Facelifter from Putricide last night. While I'm already soft exp capped with The Cat, I'm going to use it over the Marrowgar mace, just because I like the look of it better... is that wrong? heh

swords > maces =P


I have The Facelifter too, but choose to use the mace because being a Dwarf I get the racial expertise.

maces > swords for dorfs :D :D

*edit: To address your question, if you're ok on hit, extra expertise over the soft cap isn't a bad thing.
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