Tier 10/Tier 9 Librams

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Re: Tier 10/Tier 9 Librams

Postby Belgar » Tue Dec 15, 2009 3:43 pm

per other posts by Theckhd :

T9 Libram
80% proc chance, can be refreshed easily multiple times in a normal rotation .... gives a 98% up time....
Hence the 196.3 Dodge rating Value, for the graphicallyimpaired :D
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Re: Tier 10/Tier 9 Librams

Postby Roffles » Sat Dec 26, 2009 1:58 am

this is my opinion on this subject on the matter of what librims to use i would personally rather use the 226 librim and the 200 librim

http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40707

or

http://www.wowhead.com/?item=45145

cause in ICC you get a -20% dodge so 200/219 dodge rating wont help that much thought it will help how ever the block rating will provide extra threat and when you use your holy shield (which should be every CD) will provide a nice help for avoidance, so even if your using the +200 str libram these are still better because you still get more block value out of it. the 226 one you can use even during fights that you are not meleeing on
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Re: Tier 10/Tier 9 Librams

Postby Rhiannon » Sat Dec 26, 2009 2:56 pm

Roffles wrote:this is my opinion on this subject on the matter of what librims to use i would personally rather use the 226 librim and the 200 librim

http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40707

or

http://www.wowhead.com/?item=45145

cause in ICC you get a -20% dodge so 200/219 dodge rating wont help that much thought it will help how ever the block rating will provide extra threat and when you use your holy shield (which should be every CD) will provide a nice help for avoidance, so even if your using the +200 str libram these are still better because you still get more block value out of it. the 226 one you can use even during fights that you are not meleeing on


Several misapprehensions and mislabels in this post.

It's been said many times that Chill of the Throne has negligible impact on whether to gear for avoidance, effective health, pure stamina, etc. What determines this is, as ever, boss mechanics vs your current stats. Of the first four fights, two certainly reward pushing avoidance to an extent - e.g. the higher your avoidance, the slower the enemy commander on Gunship accumulates his stacking buff, and the slower Deathbringer Saurfang accumulates blood power (and the less damage he deals to mark victims). In those fights it makes a lot of sense to use an avoidance libram. Edit: this has now shown to be inaccurate, the mechanics of those fights don't particularly favour avoidance, as the mechanisms in question (battle rage and blood power) stack/accumulate regardless of if the attack is avoided or not.

Those two librams you linked provide block value, not rating. Block rating doesn't give you avoidance either, it increases the chance that a hit will be blocked, which is mitigation.
Last edited by Rhiannon on Fri Jan 01, 2010 9:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tier 10/Tier 9 Librams

Postby Roffles » Sat Dec 26, 2009 7:20 pm

Rhiannon wrote:
Roffles wrote:this is my opinion on this subject on the matter of what librims to use i would personally rather use the 226 librim and the 200 librim

http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40707

or

http://www.wowhead.com/?item=45145

cause in ICC you get a -20% dodge so 200/219 dodge rating wont help that much thought it will help how ever the block rating will provide extra threat and when you use your holy shield (which should be every CD) will provide a nice help for avoidance, so even if your using the +200 str libram these are still better because you still get more block value out of it. the 226 one you can use even during fights that you are not meleeing on


Several misapprehensions and mislabels in this post.

It's been said many times that Chill of the Throne has negligible impact on whether to gear for avoidance, effective health, pure stamina, etc. What determines this is, as ever, boss mechanics vs your current stats. Of the first four fights, two certainly reward pushing avoidance to an extent - e.g. the higher your avoidance, the slower the enemy commander on Gunship accumulates his stacking buff, and the slower Deathbringer Saurfang accumulates blood power (and the less damage he deals to mark victims). In those fights it makes a lot of sense to use an avoidance libram.

Those two librams you linked provide block value, not rating. Block rating doesn't give you avoidance either, it increases the chance that a hit will be blocked, which is mitigation.



i do agree with you, i personally am a dodge tank, im already nearly at 30% dodge x.x im all for dodge, i am also aware that both of those librams give block value not rating but playing a prot pally from 1-80 and raiding as one, all prot paladins should be spamming holyshield on all fights which since it was nerfed alittle it still gives +30% to block which doesnt stop damage but does stop alittle, but its not always about how much you block for it makes your http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=61411 hit for alot more which will give you more threat in turn. so not only are you able to block more you will be hitting for more and giving you more threat.

basically the way i look at it prot paladins should only gem for stam AND dodge there is no need for a prot paladin to gem for parry or block considering that you will get parry you need from gear and by using the enchant http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=64440 and as for block rating http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=48951 with http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=20135 thats atleast +60% block rating if not more so increasing your block value will help stop some damage just not all and increase your http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=61411 damage.

so in my input prot paladins such as myself that gems with gems like http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40138, http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40119, http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40160 will find extra block value helpful =D the extra dodge does help dont get me wrong but i dont find the +200 dodge rating on chance(even if its high) worth giving up a 450+ block value that you can keep up all fight even if not meleeing.


incase your wondering about http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40160, its a gem for the +dodge not for the defense thats only there to fill in for socket bonuses, however defense rating does increase all 3 stats dodge/parry/block even not by much so having the gem will increase your dodge and since defense does increase all 3 its not totally worthless for the +10 defense
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Re: Tier 10/Tier 9 Librams

Postby theckhd » Sun Dec 27, 2009 9:14 am

Roffles wrote:i do agree with you, i personally am a dodge tank, im already nearly at 30% dodge x.x im all for dodge, i am also aware that both of those librams give block value not rating but playing a prot pally from 1-80 and raiding as one, all prot paladins should be spamming holyshield on all fights which since it was nerfed alittle it still gives +30% to block which doesnt stop damage but does stop alittle, but its not always about how much you block for it makes your http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=61411 hit for alot more which will give you more threat in turn. so not only are you able to block more you will be hitting for more and giving you more threat.

basically the way i look at it prot paladins should only gem for stam AND dodge there is no need for a prot paladin to gem for parry or block considering that you will get parry you need from gear and by using the enchant http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=64440 and as for block rating http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=48951 with http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=20135 thats atleast +60% block rating if not more so increasing your block value will help stop some damage just not all and increase your http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=61411 damage.

so in my input prot paladins such as myself that gems with gems like http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40138, http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40119, http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40160 will find extra block value helpful =D the extra dodge does help dont get me wrong but i dont find the +200 dodge rating on chance(even if its high) worth giving up a 450+ block value that you can keep up all fight even if not meleeing.


incase your wondering about http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40160, its a gem for the +dodge not for the defense thats only there to fill in for socket bonuses, however defense rating does increase all 3 stats dodge/parry/block even not by much so having the gem will increase your dodge and since defense does increase all 3 its not totally worthless for the +10 defense


I don't even know where to begin with this, other than to say that none of your advice makes sense, and most of it is fairly straightforwardly refuted by a few simple calculations, many of which I've already done in other posts/guides/threads.
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Re: Tier 10/Tier 9 Librams

Postby Roffles » Sun Dec 27, 2009 9:25 am

theckhd wrote:
Roffles wrote:i do agree with you, i personally am a dodge tank, im already nearly at 30% dodge x.x im all for dodge, i am also aware that both of those librams give block value not rating but playing a prot pally from 1-80 and raiding as one, all prot paladins should be spamming holyshield on all fights which since it was nerfed alittle it still gives +30% to block which doesnt stop damage but does stop alittle, but its not always about how much you block for it makes your http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=61411 hit for alot more which will give you more threat in turn. so not only are you able to block more you will be hitting for more and giving you more threat.

basically the way i look at it prot paladins should only gem for stam AND dodge there is no need for a prot paladin to gem for parry or block considering that you will get parry you need from gear and by using the enchant http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=64440 and as for block rating http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=48951 with http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=20135 thats atleast +60% block rating if not more so increasing your block value will help stop some damage just not all and increase your http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=61411 damage.

so in my input prot paladins such as myself that gems with gems like http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40138, http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40119, http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40160 will find extra block value helpful =D the extra dodge does help dont get me wrong but i dont find the +200 dodge rating on chance(even if its high) worth giving up a 450+ block value that you can keep up all fight even if not meleeing.


incase your wondering about http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40160, its a gem for the +dodge not for the defense thats only there to fill in for socket bonuses, however defense rating does increase all 3 stats dodge/parry/block even not by much so having the gem will increase your dodge and since defense does increase all 3 its not totally worthless for the +10 defense


I don't even know where to begin with this, other than to say that none of your advice makes sense, and most of it is fairly straightforwardly refuted by a few simple calculations, many of which I've already done in other posts/guides/threads.



well what part of it doesnt make sense and maybe i can explain it better.
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Re: Tier 10/Tier 9 Librams

Postby Kihra » Sun Dec 27, 2009 1:15 pm

theckhd wrote:
halabar wrote:Or when you tank-swap? yeah, won't be buying it.

Thanks for the math! :D

Depends. The two "tank-swap" fights we have currently are Deathwhisper and Saurfang, neither of which require you to stop attacking or move off-target.

On the other hand, the other two fights are likely to have it drop off. In Gunship Battle you're probably disengaging for 15+ seconds to let the boss's buff stacks reset, and on Marrowgar you're likely running away from Bone Storm for 15+ seconds.


While I don't disagree on the relative priority of the T10 libram vs. other upgrades, I do disagree regarding the stacks falling off on Marrowgar and Gunship.

It's easy to melee Marrowgar during Bone Storm to keep the stacks up.

Similarly on Gunship you shouldn't be jumping over until the first mage comes out anyway, so you can build your stacks by hitting the adds on your boat first.

I don't see any disadvantage whatsoever to the T10 libram on the first four ICC fights, and I still think it's an upgrade over the T9 libram (albeit a small one).

For typical fights, the beginning part is safe enough that having to ramp up isn't a disadvantage. If you die in the first 15 seconds, you have bigger issues. :)
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Re: Tier 10/Tier 9 Librams

Postby bjanssen » Mon Dec 28, 2009 1:22 pm

well what part of it doesnt make sense and maybe i can explain it better.


We do understand what you've said. It's just that you are wrong. Sorry to sound so blunt but Theck and others have shown in many many posts that the advice you are giving results in less threat and more damage taken. It isn't simple maths but we have Theck here.
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Re: Tier 10/Tier 9 Librams

Postby Kihra » Mon Dec 28, 2009 2:44 pm

bjanssen wrote:
well what part of it doesnt make sense and maybe i can explain it better.


We do understand what you've said. It's just that you are wrong. Sorry to sound so blunt but Theck and others have shown in many many posts that the advice you are giving results in less threat and more damage taken. It isn't simple maths but we have Theck here.


To elaborate further, so he understands why he's wrong, you have to remember that Chill of the Throne has made a significant portion of landed hits unblocked.

In ICC the hits are fairly small against a well-geared tank, so initially you might think block is great. For a 20k hit, mitigating an extra 585 damage is on the order of 3% less damage taken when you block and sounds competitive with the dodge rating librams.

However when you view your damage taken as a breakdown of # of hits vs. # of blocks, you'll see that about 33% of the hits are unaffected by block.

So let's walk through all 4 fights. Your results may vary of course depending on your level of gear, but here are my numbers using the dodge rating libram.

(1) Marrowgar
- Melee hits are 15k.
- Saber Lash (split between two tanks) is 22k.
- Bone Storm was avg. 1.5k

All three of these attacks can be avoided and/or blocked. The 226 libram is clearly inferior to the dodge rating librams here. Even though it mitigates 4% of the melee hit damage when a block does happen, it only does this 67% of the time. Overall that means the 226 libram mitigates only 2.68% damage. That it fails to compete on Saber Lash is obvious.

On hard mode I am sure these hits will be much larger (probably 20-25k melee hits and 35-40k Saber Lashes), and there will be no comparison.

(2) Lady Deathwhisper

Half the damage you take on this fight is magical and threat generation matters on Deathwhisper. The ret libram is a better choice than either the avoidance or block value librams.

(3) Gunship

For tanking the enemy gunship captain, the avoidance libram is clearly superior. The captain's hits begin at 12-14k and are upwards of 40-42k by the time you bail. Stacking avoidance also causes him to accumulate stacks more slowly.

The block libram doesn't even remotely compete here.

(4) Saurfang

On this fight the block value libram will mitigate more damage than the avoidance librams. However when the boss is hitting like a kitten, there's no reason to wear a mitigation or avoidance libram. Just use the ret libram.

TLDR: Either the boss is hitting for tiny amounts, in which case you should be using the ret libram anyway, or the boss is hitting for large amounts, in which case the dodge libram is a clear winner.
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Re: Tier 10/Tier 9 Librams

Postby theckhd » Mon Dec 28, 2009 9:35 pm

Kihra brought up a lot of good points, but in addition to all of those, here's a list of factual errors:

Roffles wrote:cause in ICC you get a -20% dodge so 200/219 dodge rating wont help that much thought it will help

This isn't a logical argument. The -20% dodge aura doesn't have any effect on how much dodge you gain from the 200/219 rating. There are logical ways to say that 200 dodge rating is less valuable due to Icecrown Radiance, but you haven't made any of them.

Roffles wrote:how ever the block rating will provide extra threat and when you use your holy shield (which should be every CD) will provide a nice help for avoidance,

Block Value and blocking in general is not avoidance, it's damage mitigation.

Roffles wrote:i do agree with you, i personally am a dodge tank, im already nearly at 30% dodge x.x im all for dodge, i am also aware that both of those librams give block value not rating but playing a prot pally from 1-80 and raiding as one, all prot paladins should be spamming holyshield on all fights which since it was nerfed alittle

An ability on an 8-second cooldown really isn't "spammable," and there are situations where a smart tank doesn't waste the GCD to refresh it.

Roffles wrote:it still gives +30% to block which doesnt stop damage but does stop alittle,

Wait, what?

Roffles wrote:but its not always about how much you block for it makes your Shield of Righteousness hit for alot more which will give you more threat in turn. so not only are you able to block more you will be hitting for more and giving you more threat.

Holy Shield itself does not increase your block value, nor does it increase the damage of Shield of Righteousness. The 226 libram does give you a buff that increases your ShoR damage, but the 200 STR libram gives a much larger threat boost overall anyway.

Roffles wrote:basically the way i look at it prot paladins should only gem for stam AND dodge there is no need for a prot paladin to gem for parry or block considering that you will get parry you need from gear and by using the enchant Blade Warding

1) In general, it's better to gem Agility than Dodge
2) It's entirely possible (easy, in fact) to gear such that you gain more avoidance from a parry gem than a dodge gem.
3) Blade Warding isn't the de-facto enchant for most paladins. Many prefer Accuracy, Mongoose, or Blood Drinking for a variety of reasons.

Roffles wrote:and as for block rating Holy Shield with Redoubt thats atleast +60% block rating if not more

1) I'm not sure how you add 30% to 30% and get more than 60%
2) Redoubt doesn't have 100% uptime, so you can't count that as an always-on source of 30% block rating. A conservative estimate of the average benefit might be around 5%

Roffles wrote:so in my input prot paladins such as myself that gems with gems like Regal Dreadstone, Solid Majestic Zircon, Stalwart Ametrine will find extra block value helpful =D

How do those gem choices make block value any more helpful than it would be for any other gem choices?

Roffles wrote:the extra dodge does help dont get me wrong but i dont find the +200 dodge rating on chance(even if its high) worth giving up a 450+ block value that you can keep up all fight even if not meleeing.

1) That's a value judgement, since it's very difficult to compare apples and oranges (avoidance and mitigation). In many cases, the 200 dodge rating will reduce incoming damage by more than the 450 block value
2) The vast majority of the time, if you're not meleeing the boss, he's also not meleeing you. So it's great that you can keep the buff up, but you're not getting any use out of that extra 450 block value anyway.

Roffles wrote:incase your wondering about Stalwart Ametrine, its a gem for the +dodge not for the defense thats only there to fill in for socket bonuses, however defense rating does increase all 3 stats dodge/parry/block even not by much so having the gem will increase your dodge and since defense does increase all 3 its not totally worthless for the +10 defense

There's almost no conceivable situation where that gem would be worth using to match a socket bonus. You wouldn't use it to match a stamina bonus, because it would always be a serious drop in effective health. And most avoidance bonuses are so weak that they're not worth picking up in the first place. And even if you were matching socket bonuses, you'd almost always be better off using an agility gem to match the bonus anyway.


As I said, most of these points have already been thoroughly discussed in other threads on this forum. Many of them have entire threads devoted to them.

And while I don't like to harp on grammar, your posts are a series of run-on sentences. That makes it very hard to read, let alone extract what you intended to get across.
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Re: Tier 10/Tier 9 Librams

Postby Roffles » Wed Dec 30, 2009 2:31 am

theckhd wrote:Kihra brought up a lot of good points, but in addition to all of those, here's a list of factual errors:

Roffles wrote:cause in ICC you get a -20% dodge so 200/219 dodge rating wont help that much thought it will help

This isn't a logical argument. The -20% dodge aura doesn't have any effect on how much dodge you gain from the 200/219 rating. There are logical ways to say that 200 dodge rating is less valuable due to Icecrown Radiance, but you haven't made any of them.

Roffles wrote:how ever the block rating will provide extra threat and when you use your holy shield (which should be every CD) will provide a nice help for avoidance,

Block Value and blocking in general is not avoidance, it's damage mitigation.

Roffles wrote:i do agree with you, i personally am a dodge tank, im already nearly at 30% dodge x.x im all for dodge, i am also aware that both of those librams give block value not rating but playing a prot pally from 1-80 and raiding as one, all prot paladins should be spamming holyshield on all fights which since it was nerfed alittle

An ability on an 8-second cooldown really isn't "spammable," and there are situations where a smart tank doesn't waste the GCD to refresh it.

Roffles wrote:it still gives +30% to block which doesnt stop damage but does stop alittle,

Wait, what?

Roffles wrote:but its not always about how much you block for it makes your Shield of Righteousness hit for alot more which will give you more threat in turn. so not only are you able to block more you will be hitting for more and giving you more threat.

Holy Shield itself does not increase your block value, nor does it increase the damage of Shield of Righteousness. The 226 libram does give you a buff that increases your ShoR damage, but the 200 STR libram gives a much larger threat boost overall anyway.

Roffles wrote:basically the way i look at it prot paladins should only gem for stam AND dodge there is no need for a prot paladin to gem for parry or block considering that you will get parry you need from gear and by using the enchant Blade Warding

1) In general, it's better to gem Agility than Dodge
2) It's entirely possible (easy, in fact) to gear such that you gain more avoidance from a parry gem than a dodge gem.
3) Blade Warding isn't the de-facto enchant for most paladins. Many prefer Accuracy, Mongoose, or Blood Drinking for a variety of reasons.

Roffles wrote:and as for block rating Holy Shield with Redoubt thats atleast +60% block rating if not more

1) I'm not sure how you add 30% to 30% and get more than 60%
2) Redoubt doesn't have 100% uptime, so you can't count that as an always-on source of 30% block rating. A conservative estimate of the average benefit might be around 5%

Roffles wrote:so in my input prot paladins such as myself that gems with gems like Regal Dreadstone, Solid Majestic Zircon, Stalwart Ametrine will find extra block value helpful =D

How do those gem choices make block value any more helpful than it would be for any other gem choices?

Roffles wrote:the extra dodge does help dont get me wrong but i dont find the +200 dodge rating on chance(even if its high) worth giving up a 450+ block value that you can keep up all fight even if not meleeing.

1) That's a value judgement, since it's very difficult to compare apples and oranges (avoidance and mitigation). In many cases, the 200 dodge rating will reduce incoming damage by more than the 450 block value
2) The vast majority of the time, if you're not meleeing the boss, he's also not meleeing you. So it's great that you can keep the buff up, but you're not getting any use out of that extra 450 block value anyway.

Roffles wrote:incase your wondering about Stalwart Ametrine, its a gem for the +dodge not for the defense thats only there to fill in for socket bonuses, however defense rating does increase all 3 stats dodge/parry/block even not by much so having the gem will increase your dodge and since defense does increase all 3 its not totally worthless for the +10 defense

There's almost no conceivable situation where that gem would be worth using to match a socket bonus. You wouldn't use it to match a stamina bonus, because it would always be a serious drop in effective health. And most avoidance bonuses are so weak that they're not worth picking up in the first place. And even if you were matching socket bonuses, you'd almost always be better off using an agility gem to match the bonus anyway.


As I said, most of these points have already been thoroughly discussed in other threads on this forum. Many of them have entire threads devoted to them.

And while I don't like to harp on grammar, your posts are a series of run-on sentences. That makes it very hard to read, let alone extract what you intended to get across.



to start off, even though i should not be starting with the last thing you said, however i have a habbit of using commas instead of periods to break my sentences, i am very aware that commas arnt meant for that its for a short "Break" in the sentence, so when you see a comma look at it as a period or use context to see if an actual comma would be better suited for that particular(sp?) part of the sentence.

now, to start off going down the list

Theckhd wrote:
Roffles wrote:cause in ICC you get a -20% dodge so 200/219 dodge rating wont help that much thought it will help

This isn't a logical argument. The -20% dodge aura doesn't have any effect on how much dodge you gain from the 200/219 rating. There are logical ways to say that 200 dodge rating is less valuable due to Icecrown Radiance, but you haven't made any of them.


to re-word what is being quoted here, is that in ICC you do get a -20% dodge and that a 200/219 extra dodge rating wont help that much but it STILL helps just not as much as it would in other fights


Theckhd wrote:
Roffles wrote:how ever the block rating will provide extra threat and when you use your holy shield (which should be every CD) will provide a nice help for avoidance,

Block Value and blocking in general is not avoidance, it's damage mitigation.


i happen to include blocking in "avoidance" when its not technically avoidance, it is however caculated in your combined avoidance, now whether or not its still the required combined avoidance or if its even still matters in ICC my macro i have you need 102.4 combined avoidance, and thats why i include it in avoidance instead of saying "mitigation"

Theckckhd wrote:
Roffles wrote:i do agree with you, i personally am a dodge tank, im already nearly at 30% dodge x.x im all for dodge, i am also aware that both of those librams give block value not rating but playing a prot pally from 1-80 and raiding as one, all prot paladins should be spamming holyshield on all fights which since it was nerfed alittle

An ability on an 8-second cooldown really isn't "spammable," and there are situations where a smart tank doesn't waste the GCD to refresh it.


i dont know for other tanks and what their tanking rotation is, but i go judgement, SHoR, conc, HoR, HS, then start over only adjustments i make to this is when i need to use avengers shield, hammer of justice, or hammer of wrath. but without making adjustments to it i have time to do all 5 moves and start over without any wait time

Theckckhd wrote:
Roffles wrote:it still gives +30% to block which doesnt stop damage but does stop alittle,

Wait, what?


this one was my bad it was supposed to read "it still gives +30% to block which doesnt stop all damage like dodge but still does stop alittle"

Theckckhd wrote:
Roffles wrote:but its not always about how much you block for it makes your Shield of Righteousness hit for alot more which will give you more threat in turn. so not only are you able to block more you will be hitting for more and giving you more threat.

Holy Shield itself does not increase your block value, nor does it increase the damage of Shield of Righteousness. The 226 libram does give you a buff that increases your ShoR damage, but the 200 STR libram gives a much larger threat boost overall anyway.


now correct me if im wrong(which i might be not sure) but you dont get as much block value from 200 str than you do from the block librams, not sure what else str does for you besides increase block value and AP

Theckckhd wrote:
Roffles wrote:basically the way i look at it prot paladins should only gem for stam AND dodge there is no need for a prot paladin to gem for parry or block considering that you will get parry you need from gear and by using the enchant Blade Warding

1) In general, it's better to gem Agility than Dodge
2) It's entirely possible (easy, in fact) to gear such that you gain more avoidance from a parry gem than a dodge gem.
3) Blade Warding isn't the de-facto enchant for most paladins. Many prefer Accuracy, Mongoose, or Blood Drinking for a variety of reasons.


if im correct you get no avoidance from agi? only armor and crit, which crit can be helpful for agro building, but being a skinner i have alot of crit (dont ask why i a skinner another story for another time), now armor can be very useful but using agi gems the amount of armor you would get from it wont really make that much of a difference, now a reason for dodge gems instead of parry gems, is i believe parry has a faster DR than dodge (not sure) and i also think there is a soft cap for parry which can be nearly obtained from mostly gear, now other enchants can work just as well i guess its just a matter of preference for enchants

Theckckhd wrote:
Roffles wrote:and as for block rating Holy Shield with Redoubt thats atleast +60% block rating if not more

1) I'm not sure how you add 30% to 30% and get more than 60%
2) Redoubt doesn't have 100% uptime, so you can't count that as an always-on source of 30% block rating. A conservative estimate of the average benefit might be around 5%


also something bad on my part the "if not more" wasnt supposed to be there = / meant to go back and delete it, im aware the redoubt doesnt have a 100% uptime your mostly lucky if you even get it more than once or twice per boss fight it was just saying basically the most you can get is atleast +60%

Theckckhd wrote:
Roffles wrote:so in my input prot paladins such as myself that gems with gems like Regal Dreadstone, Solid Majestic Zircon, Stalwart Ametrine will find extra block value helpful =D

How do those gem choices make block value any more helpful than it would be for any other gem choices?


people without those type of gems will find themselves lower dodge than the ones that do and will need the extra dodge rating from the librams to make up for the lost dodge such as EH tanks, where as dodge tanks dont have that big of a need of the extra dodge(it still helps) but will find some use from the block librams that the non dodge tanks cant

Theckckhd wrote:
Roffles wrote:the extra dodge does help dont get me wrong but i dont find the +200 dodge rating on chance(even if its high) worth giving up a 450+ block value that you can keep up all fight even if not meleeing.

1) That's a value judgement, since it's very difficult to compare apples and oranges (avoidance and mitigation). In many cases, the 200 dodge rating will reduce incoming damage by more than the 450 block value
2) The vast majority of the time, if you're not meleeing the boss, he's also not meleeing you. So it's great that you can keep the buff up, but you're not getting any use out of that extra 450 block value anyway.


yes it is mostly based on preference, but its not the point that the 450 block is useless during the time that your not meleeing him its the fact that it will always be up and wont need to adjust your rotation to get the dodge rating buff on right when you go back to meleeing him

Theckckhd wrote:
Roffles wrote:incase your wondering about Stalwart Ametrine, its a gem for the +dodge not for the defense thats only there to fill in for socket bonuses, however defense rating does increase all 3 stats dodge/parry/block even not by much so having the gem will increase your dodge and since defense does increase all 3 its not totally worthless for the +10 defense

There's almost no conceivable situation where that gem would be worth using to match a socket bonus. You wouldn't use it to match a stamina bonus, because it would always be a serious drop in effective health. And most avoidance bonuses are so weak that they're not worth picking up in the first place. And even if you were matching socket bonuses, you'd almost always be better off using an agility gem to match the bonus anyway.


in most tanking gear(not all but most) you hardly happen to come across a yellow socket i think at the moment im only wearing 2 pieces with yellow sockets with those gems so having 20 dodge and 20 defense comes you get a bigger bonus than any agi orange cut, and as for putting a 30 stam gem i guess its another thing that is a preference cause i cant stand to look at gear without socket bonuses i seriously bugs the living hell out of me so i like seeing the socket bonuses

now after all this it still doesnt change the fact that as you pointed out that its been said or been brought up in other threads on this forum and the post is not in the right thread to begin with, but while i was reading this and as im sure others do without reading other forums i figured it would be nice to put this in here x.x
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Re: Tier 10/Tier 9 Librams

Postby Kihra » Wed Dec 30, 2009 3:04 am

Roffles wrote:
Theckhd wrote:
Roffles wrote:cause in ICC you get a -20% dodge so 200/219 dodge rating wont help that much thought it will help

This isn't a logical argument. The -20% dodge aura doesn't have any effect on how much dodge you gain from the 200/219 rating. There are logical ways to say that 200 dodge rating is less valuable due to Icecrown Radiance, but you haven't made any of them.


to re-word what is being quoted here, is that in ICC you do get a -20% dodge and that a 200/219 extra dodge rating wont help that much but it STILL helps just not as much as it would in other fights


The dodge libram still helps more than the block value libram for large hits. Consider a tank that avoids 60 out of 100 boss hits in normal instances. If that tank equips the dodge libram and starts avoiding 63 out of 100 boss hits, then he is now taking 92.5% of the damage he was before for a 7.5% reduction in damage.

With Icecrown Radiance it's true that 3% dodge from the libram will overall be a smaller reduction in damage taken (using the same example, avoiding 43 boss hits instead of 40 is only a 5% reduction), but it still clobbers the heck out of the block value libram for any decent-sized hit.

On a 20k hit, blocking for an additional 585 (450*130%) is only about a 3% damage reduction. The dodge libram is still a clear winner, especially when you remember that a significant portion of hits won't be blocked at all in ICC. I even used a pretty pessimistic avoidance value.

Roffles wrote:
Theckckhd wrote:
Roffles wrote:but its not always about how much you block for it makes your Shield of Righteousness hit for alot more which will give you more threat in turn. so not only are you able to block more you will be hitting for more and giving you more threat.

Holy Shield itself does not increase your block value, nor does it increase the damage of Shield of Righteousness. The 226 libram does give you a buff that increases your ShoR damage, but the 200 STR libram gives a much larger threat boost overall anyway.


now correct me if im wrong(which i might be not sure) but you dont get as much block value from 200 str than you do from the block librams, not sure what else str does for you besides increase block value and AP


ShoR is the only ability you have that increases its threat from block value. You have plenty of other abilities (and of course normal melee hits) that benefit from Strength, like HotR. If you do the math (and people have), you'll find that the 200 Str libram is a better threat choice.

Basically the block value libram is not the best libram for threat and it's not the best libram in terms of damage reduction. As I said before, if you're getting hit for small amounts, you should just be using a threat libram, and if you're getting hit for large amounts, then the dodge libram is the better choice.

I'm of the opinion that for the most part fights in WoW now break down into "EH fights" vs. "threat fights." The block value libram isn't the best at either role.

Roffles wrote:if im correct you get no avoidance from agi?


Wrong. You gain Dodge from Agi.

I'll let Theck cover the rest. :)
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Re: Tier 10/Tier 9 Librams

Postby Shathus » Wed Dec 30, 2009 12:00 pm

Roffles wrote: i dont know for other tanks and what their tanking rotation is, but i go judgement, SHoR, conc, HoR, HS, then start over only adjustments i make to this is when i need to use avengers shield, hammer of justice, or hammer of wrath. but without making adjustments to it i have time to do all 5 moves and start over without any wait time


Just something to mention here, the above rotation is 96969, which is fine. However, when you say, 'start over' are you starting over at judgement again or you just mean you keep going? If you are in fact starting over with the above abilities, you're doing a 9696996969, which will throw off your GCDs. A slight tangent from the libram discussion and I think Kihra addressed anything else I might have added, I just wanted to point that out and see if that's what you actually meant or not.
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Re: Tier 10/Tier 9 Librams

Postby theckhd » Sun Jan 03, 2010 2:18 am

Roffles wrote:to re-word what is being quoted here, is that in ICC you do get a -20% dodge and that a 200/219 extra dodge rating wont help that much but it STILL helps just not as much as it would in other fights

Khira has already covered this, but the point remains - The relative value of 200 dodge rating doesn't change drastically with Chill of the Throne.


Roffles wrote:i happen to include blocking in "avoidance" when its not technically avoidance, it is however caculated in your combined avoidance, now whether or not its still the required combined avoidance or if its even still matters in ICC my macro i have you need 102.4 combined avoidance, and thats why i include it in avoidance instead of saying "mitigation"

When one chooses to wear his pants on his head, he should not be surprised when other (saner) people point out that pants do not belong on one's head.

Translated: I don't care what you happen to consider avoidance, because there already exists a perfectly logical definition for what is avoidance and what is mitigation. If you don't know the difference, that's fine, we're here to help. But don't expect anyone to take you seriously if you refuse to use the proper terminology even when presented with it. That's called being "willfully ignorant."

Roffles wrote:i dont know for other tanks and what their tanking rotation is, but i go judgement, SHoR, conc, HoR, HS, then start over only adjustments i make to this is when i need to use avengers shield, hammer of justice, or hammer of wrath. but without making adjustments to it i have time to do all 5 moves and start over without any wait time

As someone already pointed out, this isn't proper 969 if you follow HS with Judgement. But that wasn't my main point anyway. The point is that you can't spam an ability that you should be casting every 9 seconds, and that if you're trying to push extra DPS, Holy Shield is generally the ability you drop for HoW/AS/HW/etc.

Roffles wrote:now correct me if im wrong(which i might be not sure) but you dont get as much block value from 200 str than you do from the block librams, not sure what else str does for you besides increase block value and AP

You're correct, 200 str will only give you around 125 block value. But the AP it gives you more than makes up the threat deficit.

Roffles wrote:if im correct you get no avoidance from agi? only armor and crit,

No, you also get the equivalent of 85 dodge rating from every 100 agility. I've already shown that agility is just as effective as dodge rating at reducing incoming damage, and once Chill of the Throne is factored in Agility should be hands-down better.

Roffles wrote:now a reason for dodge gems instead of parry gems, is i believe parry has a faster DR than dodge (not sure) and i also think there is a soft cap for parry which can be nearly obtained from mostly gear, now other enchants can work just as well i guess its just a matter of preference for enchants

There is no soft cap on parry. Parry does have a faster DR than dodge, but you also generally have much higher dodge than parry thanks to agility buffs. And it's been shown (by myself and others) that there is an optimum ratio of dodge:parry that is easily attainable with current gear. So it's not just a matter of preference when looking at whether to gem dodge or parry, because you can easily calculate which one will give you more avoidance.

Roffles wrote:people without those type of gems will find themselves lower dodge than the ones that do and will need the extra dodge rating from the librams to make up for the lost dodge such as EH tanks, where as dodge tanks dont have that big of a need of the extra dodge(it still helps) but will find some use from the block librams that the non dodge tanks cant

There is no target dodge value that people aim for. It's hard to imagine anybody "needing" extra dodge rating to make up for some deficiency. And a tank who was so focused on stacking dodge would rather have more dodge from the libram in the first place.

Roffles wrote:yes it is mostly based on preference, but its not the point that the 450 block is useless during the time that your not meleeing him its the fact that it will always be up and wont need to adjust your rotation to get the dodge rating buff on right when you go back to meleeing him

Nobody will adjust their rotation to get the dodge rating buff up, because they can't. You should be casting HotR and ShoR on cooldown already, so there's no room in your rotation to move them around if the buff drops off.

Roffles wrote:in most tanking gear(not all but most) you hardly happen to come across a yellow socket i think at the moment im only wearing 2 pieces with yellow sockets with those gems so having 20 dodge and 20 defense comes you get a bigger bonus than any agi orange cut, and as for putting a 30 stam gem i guess its another thing that is a preference cause i cant stand to look at gear without socket bonuses i seriously bugs the living hell out of me so i like seeing the socket bonuses

Whether it bugs you or not, most progression tanks forgo socket bonuses below a certain threshold. Virtually none gem pure avoidance because it's not a strong choice in the current raiding environment.

Roffles wrote:now after all this it still doesnt change the fact that as you pointed out that its been said or been brought up in other threads on this forum and the post is not in the right thread to begin with, but while i was reading this and as im sure others do without reading other forums i figured it would be nice to put this in here x.x

My complaint wasn't that you were posting information here. It was that you were posting inaccurate information, despite the correct information being prominently featured in stickies and guides already posted.

As an analogy, if I called up the University of Cairo's Ancient History department and told them that I was pretty sure the pyramids were created by aliens based on my gut feeling, I would be foolish to expect anything other than a hostile reaction.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
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Re: Tier 10/Tier 9 Librams

Postby Fridmarr » Sun Jan 03, 2010 2:52 am

Admittedly, there hasn't been as much moderation in these forums over the holidays as we normally have, but good lord, some of you vets (and especially mods) should really know better. These aren't the official forums, and your trolling/belligerent posts are not wanted here. If someone is wrong, you refute what is wrong with solid information. The purpose of these forums is to help people, not to show off your tanking knowledge by making fun of someone or hijacking the read with meaningless drivel.

The offending posts have been deleted.
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