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Tier 10/Tier 9 Librams

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Tier 10/Tier 9 Librams

Postby Petrus » Wed Oct 14, 2009 12:03 am

Tier 9 had two FANTASTIC librams for us - one for threat and another for avoidance.

Tier 10's libram (73 dodge on a 3stack procced by ShoR up to 219 dodge) seems underwhelming to me. It's a 19 dodge upgrade from the previous avoidance libram (oh boy, 19 dodge when we've got loads of dodge already is more like 5 or 10 dodge) which is still an upgrade but really I can't see myself prioritizing its purchase as I did with the T9 librams. The strength libram is amazing for threat and dps on fights where avoidance isn't a big deal (read: any time the boss stuns or has an unavoidable or magic attack) and when avoidance is a big deal I can easily switch to the 200 dodge libram and gain it all right away as opposed to waiting for it to stack up over 18 seconds.

So, ultimately, I'm not gonna buy my t10 libram with my badges (assuming it is like t9 and will be purchasable with badges again, because despite the badge system kind of sucking for the actual tier gear right now, putting relics on badges is imo the best way to do it) until after I have all the other cool stuff I want.
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Re: Tier 10/Tier 9 Librams

Postby ulushnar » Wed Oct 14, 2009 12:13 am

The numbers look weirdly inconsistent when comparing the Pala and DK DPS and Tanking relics. I'd let them settle a bit before making your mind up.
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Re: Tier 10/Tier 9 Librams

Postby theckhd » Wed Oct 14, 2009 6:53 am

The value will have to rise appreciably to make it worthwhile. Once you factor in the 18-second ramp time, the average effect of the new libram is pretty crap. If you plot the moving average dodge rating (cumulative sum divided by total time), it takes a full 58 seconds before the T10 libram overtakes the T9.

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Re: Tier 10/Tier 9 Librams

Postby theckhd » Wed Oct 14, 2009 10:33 am

So, I want to recant on my statement, but only slightly.

Average dodge rating is a poor metric for this comparison, because it assumes you have a flat % chance to die at any given moment. Unfortunately, that's not how things work. How often have you died on the pull, or even in the first 12 seconds? And how devastating is that compared to a wipe 9 minutes into a 10-minute encounter (non-tribute, I suppose)?

Since the likelihood of dying in the first 12 seconds is drastically lower, this libram isn't quite as bad as the 58-second figure would suggest, at least for a tank-and-spank fight. I'd probably go with the new libram for such a fight, if given the option.

That being said, it does become drastically worse on any fight where there's a chance your buff will fall off, due to movement, incapacitation, silence, or any fight mechanic that requires you not melee anything for more than 15 seconds. There aren't many fights like this, but there are a few (Northrend Beasts and Mimiron being the one most readily coming to mind, I can't think of anything else in ToGC that would do this short of chain-CC on FC, which doesn't count).

That, combined with the fact that
  • it's only a 19 dodge rating upgrade (what's that, like, 2 ilvls worth of dodge?),
  • and the fact that it isn't already sitting in my inventory,
  • and the fact that it will cost badges that could be more readily put towards tier pieces or other, bigger upgrades
  • and the fact that it takes up an inventory slot
  • and the fact that unless Icecrown massively overhauls encounter design, avoidance is still a far less important stat than EH
all lead to this libram being way too weak to be worth anything. If it were 300 dodge rating, then maybe we'd talk. At 219, I probably won't even bother picking it up before off-spec ret gear.
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Re: Tier 10/Tier 9 Librams

Postby Macktruck » Sat Oct 17, 2009 8:57 pm

If there are seriously no additional changes to the relics, t10 libram is one item I'm definitely not picking up.

As stated, 19 dodge rating? For the rest of us, that's literally a drop in the bucket in terms of avoidance gain. Emblems are better spent on badge gear and possibly tier gear if blizzard keeps up with token + badges.
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Re: Tier 10/Tier 9 Librams

Postby Arjuna » Sun Oct 18, 2009 11:19 pm

and no ICC threat libram for us either :(
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Re: Tier 10/Tier 9 Librams

Postby Eanin » Sun Dec 13, 2009 12:12 pm

Wow - thanks for the heads up. Since I'm not raiding right now, Emblems of Frost are in short supply. I won't be wasting my first 25 on this libram.
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Re: Tier 10/Tier 9 Librams

Postby Anorian » Mon Dec 14, 2009 2:51 am

Even if you are raiding frosts are in short supply compared to the amount we need. And no way i'm giving up 200 str for this crap libram.
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Re: Tier 10/Tier 9 Librams

Postby Thorogar » Mon Dec 14, 2009 3:58 am

Hey Guys,

I was wondering about the librams just last night.

http://www.wowhead.com/?item=50461

http://www.wowhead.com/?item=47664

The difference seems to be (taken from the tooltip) that the new librams garantees 73 % dodge rating per stack. The old one gives a chance to get 200 dodge rating. So, unless the chance is very high, the new librams seems a lot better than the old one.

Doesn't it ?

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Re: Tier 10/Tier 9 Librams

Postby hoho » Mon Dec 14, 2009 4:08 am

Yes, those new librams are almost exactly as good or even worse than the old ones as old has nearly 100% uptime wheras it's quite easy to have the stack drop on the new ones.
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Re: Tier 10/Tier 9 Librams

Postby theckhd » Mon Dec 14, 2009 5:18 pm

Thorogar wrote:So, unless the chance is very high, the new librams seems a lot better than the old one.

Doesn't it ?

Your question was already answered 6 posts above yours, with a pretty graph no less.

Unless you like wasting badges, don't buy the new librams.
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Re: Tier 10/Tier 9 Librams

Postby Morendin » Tue Dec 15, 2009 8:45 am

Nitpick:
The Ret libram is worth buying for Ret*, because their other libram options while using SoC for AoE fights are utter trash. The only single-target fights I can imagine a Ret using the T10 libram for are Saurfang, and MAYBE Twins though... 5x CS to stack it back up and only 15s duration makes it very easy to fall off and stupidly long to stack back up, especially compared to T9 still refreshing from the remaining HV ticks while you're off target and THEN giving you 18 seconds of buff to get back, then procing within 1-3 ticks of SOV 99% of the time even if you're off all targets for 30+ seconds.

*This doesn't apply to Prot, though, because that libram triggers off CS :(
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Re: Tier 10/Tier 9 Librams

Postby halabar » Tue Dec 15, 2009 10:50 am

theckhd wrote:That being said, it does become drastically worse on any fight where there's a chance your buff will fall off, due to movement, incapacitation, silence, or any fight mechanic that requires you not melee anything for more than 15 seconds.


Or when you tank-swap? yeah, won't be buying it.

Thanks for the math! :D
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Re: Tier 10/Tier 9 Librams

Postby theckhd » Tue Dec 15, 2009 11:09 am

halabar wrote:Or when you tank-swap? yeah, won't be buying it.

Thanks for the math! :D

Depends. The two "tank-swap" fights we have currently are Deathwhisper and Saurfang, neither of which require you to stop attacking or move off-target.

On the other hand, the other two fights are likely to have it drop off. In Gunship Battle you're probably disengaging for 15+ seconds to let the boss's buff stacks reset, and on Marrowgar you're likely running away from Bone Storm for 15+ seconds.
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Re: Tier 10/Tier 9 Librams

Postby Wrathy » Tue Dec 15, 2009 11:19 am

For a rough estimate on whether or not your buff will stay up, just count how many times DP falls off during this weeks clears, and you will see that it happens a lot. I hated all the running to hit something so that it wouldnt fall off last week.
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