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Identify your Tank Level for Gear/Gems/Enchants

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Re: Defining Maintanka-Levels for Gear/Gems/Enchants

Postby econ21 » Fri Mar 19, 2010 5:18 am

I agree with Yappo, that three levels may be more sensible than four - viz:

(1) New tank - who has hit level 80 with some cash and foresight, so is just ready to start doing heroics; will be in titansteel crafted and reputation gear (basically Eanin's old failsafe guide gear). A paladin who initially is going to dps random heroics may skip this stage, accumulating gear from emblems before tanking.

(2) Failsafe tank - who has been level 80 for a month or more, and has got all the emblem gear they want out of heroics but not raided; they will be in EoT and ilevel 245 crafted gear (basically Yappo's failsafe guide gear). Fledern on tankspot has provided a RAWR file of what such a tank will look like:
http://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B_0ICbl ... NDk0&hl=en

(3) ICC raid tank - who has raid experience and is working on ICC; this will differ from the failsafe tank in having some raid drops from ToC and elsewhere.

I suspect the "failsafe" tank may not want to gem and enchant exclusively for stamina if they have their eye on pillars of might and the boots of kingly upheaval as upgrades. I followed Yappo's guide and Digren's guide, gemming for +6 stamina bonuses or better. I was initially irritated that this left me far above the defence minimum and wondered if I had wasted my money on mixed epic gems - whether I would have been better going for pure stamina, as ICC tanks seem to.

However, I have been mollifed by looking at the impact of those two ilvl 264 purchases on my defence stat. I am still able to gem the legs for stamina, but if I get the boots, I will be at around the minimum and need almost every bit of existing defence I have. Consequently, I won't be regemming those mixed gems with +6 stamina bonuses any time soon.

I suspect tanks who have gear from raid drops will be more comfortable in this regard than the "failsafe" tank and so Digren's different gem/enchant priorities are relevant.
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Re: Defining Maintanka-Levels for Gear/Gems/Enchants

Postby Digren » Fri Mar 19, 2010 9:56 am

Is there a difference between an ICC raid tank and a hard-mode ICC raid tank? In my experience there still is, because the hard-mode tank is willing to make effective health choices that most standard-mode tanks - even 25-man raid tanks - will not.

Based on that experience, I might propose that the four levels need to be shifted somewhat:
1. New to 80, in quest or crafted blues and purples.
2. Yappo's latested guide, which is equivalent to a ToC-25 level now.
3. ICC tank, wearing a mix of 251 to 264 gear.
4. ICC hard mode tank, wearing 277 gear.

Most normal ICC tanks will match +9 stamina socket bonuses or similar; I see no hard-mode tanks (that post here) that would stoop so low. Thus, for the purposes of the gem and enchant guide, I would want to retain those as separate levels.

Thoughts?
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Re: Defining Maintanka-Levels for Gear/Gems/Enchants

Postby Wrathy » Fri Mar 19, 2010 11:00 am

Digren wrote:Is there a difference between an ICC raid tank and a hard-mode ICC raid tank? In my experience there still is, because the hard-mode tank is willing to make effective health choices that most standard-mode tanks - even 25-man raid tanks - will not....

Most normal ICC tanks will match +9 stamina socket bonuses or similar; I see no hard-mode tanks (that post here) that would stoop so low. Thus, for the purposes of the gem and enchant guide, I would want to retain those as separate levels.

Thoughts?


Meloree and I have been talking a lot about gearing lately for hard modes, and I think for the most part It would be slightly value added. As an ICC raid tank, you can pick up socket bonuses, drop your stam a bit, even use threat gear for most fights, save Sindragosa and Arathas. I've tanked Festergut in threat gear now. However there are only two sets that you should use in ICC hard modes, max EH (with a focus on armor), and Frost Resist.

The set I am most likely logged out in is the only set I use in ICC now for hard modes. There is no swapping gear out, it is a pure min/max for survival due to how hard the bosses hit, and even when they dont hit exceedingly hard, I want to make it as easy as possible and as predictable as possible on my healers so that they can raid heal as needed.

ICC hard mode tanks philosophy -
Stam gems in all but the helm
IMO 10 dodge/15 stam gem. With three pieces of 277 (which is on the low side for a hard mode tank) I am at the 45k mark of armor (when potting) where dodge gems surpass armor for pure EH.

Gladiator Enchant to shoulders
275 health to chest
18 stam to gloves
Stam to shield
When all else fails more stam, because we are all gearing for Arathas HM now, and that is not an easy task.

EDIT: Corrections to some numbers...
Last edited by Wrathy on Fri Mar 19, 2010 7:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Defining Maintanka-Levels for Gear/Gems/Enchants

Postby yappo » Fri Mar 19, 2010 5:52 pm

Digren wrote:Is there a difference between an ICC raid tank and a hard-mode ICC raid tank?


As a pugger I haven't seen anything beyond Rotface. Still, I was told Festergut was a gearcheck, but at least at 10-man normal-mode he's NOT a gear-check as far as the tank goes. We had problems because my co-tank was geared well below the failsafe tank (we're still talking picking up socket-bonuses here), but he went down.

Anyway, even though this is a main-tank site, there's a certain assumption hanging around that every main-tank belongs to a guild that's downed Arthas and is currently progressing through hardmode ICC. I don't believe this to be true, but I DO believe that gear is rapidly catching up to content for those tanks (and implicitly entire guilds) who are still slugging through normal mode ICC. Add to this the 5, 10, 15, etc % bonuses instance-wide in ICC and we're rapidly heading into a situation where tank-death ceases to be an issue for ICC normal mode, no matter if the tank's chanted/gemmed EH or not.

So, yes, there should definitely be a difference.
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Re: Defining Maintanka-Levels for Gear/Gems/Enchants

Postby yappo » Fri Mar 19, 2010 5:52 pm

Digren wrote:Is there a difference between an ICC raid tank and a hard-mode ICC raid tank?


As a pugger I haven't seen anything beyond Rotface. Still, I was told Festergut was a gearcheck, but at least at 10-man normal-mode he's NOT a gear-check as far as the tank goes. We had problems because my co-tank was geared well below the failsafe tank (we're still talking picking up socket-bonuses here), but he went down.

Anyway, even though this is a main-tank site, there's a certain assumption hanging around that every main-tank belongs to a guild that's downed Arthas and is currently progressing through hardmode ICC. I don't believe this to be true, but I DO believe that gear is rapidly catching up to content for those tanks (and implicitly entire guilds) who are still slugging through normal mode ICC. Add to this the 5, 10, 15, etc % bonuses instance-wide in ICC and we're rapidly heading into a situation where tank-death ceases to be an issue for ICC normal mode, no matter if the tank's chanted/gemmed EH or not.

So, yes, there should definitely be a difference.
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Re: Defining Maintanka-Levels for Gear/Gems/Enchants

Postby lucem » Sat Mar 20, 2010 11:30 am

Digren wrote:Is there a difference between an ICC raid tank and a hard-mode ICC raid tank? In my experience there still is, because the hard-mode tank is willing to make effective health choices that most standard-mode tanks - even 25-man raid tanks - will not.

Based on that experience, I might propose that the four levels need to be shifted somewhat:
1. New to 80, in quest or crafted blues and purples.
2. Yappo's latested guide, which is equivalent to a ToC-25 level now.
3. ICC tank, wearing a mix of 251 to 264 gear.
4. ICC hard mode tank, wearing 277 gear.

Most normal ICC tanks will match +9 stamina socket bonuses or similar; I see no hard-mode tanks (that post here) that would stoop so low. Thus, for the purposes of the gem and enchant guide, I would want to retain those as separate levels.

Thoughts?


having read that leads me to question my enchanting/gems. Im on the ICC tank category maybe, im sitting on 264 251 and 245 except on the shield and the boots. I only have 1 lvl 80 so primordial are a rare sight, so no boot upgrades in the short run are planned, my shield is ilvl 219 splintered door which im hoping to change if the gunship shield actually exists (havent seen it drop so far for me).
Now so far the only enchant i know i will change is the shield 20 defense for 18 stamina when i get the new shield. But i dont like to match +9 bonus. I always match my helm's bonus but thats a +12. So based on my level am i doing it all wrong? (got my stuff back now) should i be matching the bonus?
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Re: Defining Maintanka-Levels for Gear/Gems/Enchants

Postby yappo » Sun Mar 21, 2010 10:07 am

lucem wrote:
having read that leads me to question my enchanting/gems. Im on the ICC tank category maybe, im sitting on 264 251 and 245 except on the shield and the boots. I only have 1 lvl 80 so primordial are a rare sight, so no boot upgrades in the short run are planned, my shield is ilvl 219 splintered door which im hoping to change if the gunship shield actually exists (havent seen it drop so far for me).
Now so far the only enchant i know i will change is the shield 20 defense for 18 stamina when i get the new shield. But i dont like to match +9 bonus. I always match my helm's bonus but thats a +12. So based on my level am i doing it all wrong? (got my stuff back now) should i be matching the bonus?



Based on the guides and general consensus you're not doing anything wrong at all.

I'm the one advocating "wrongness", or rather keeping an eye open for cracks in the wall of rightness, if you so prefer.

As a matter fact I suspect that the EH (I clump together stam and armour for the sake of simplicity) advocates wouldn't see anything wrong in deviating from the EH-track, given that you outgear the content. So, in the end I believe it boils down to the difference being that I consider the average ICC 10 normal mode tank to vastly outgear the content, in which case pure EH is a waste of resources. Now, my assumption about outgearing could be horribly wrong, and if so my arguments fall down like so many tons of brick :D
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Re: Defining Maintanka-Levels for Gear/Gems/Enchants

Postby Wrathy » Sun Mar 21, 2010 12:26 pm

yappo wrote:As a matter fact I suspect that the EH (I clump together stam and armour for the sake of simplicity) advocates wouldn't see anything wrong in deviating from the EH-track, given that you outgear the content. So, in the end I believe it boils down to the difference being that I consider the average ICC 10 normal mode tank to vastly outgear the content, in which case pure EH is a waste of resources. Now, my assumption about outgearing could be horribly wrong, and if so my arguments fall down like so many tons of brick


I think this is the main point which Digren is trying to convey with the difference between ICC normal tanks and ICC hard mode tanks. Yes yappo, you are correct that the tanks that advocate effective health will agree that you are more than welcome to deviate once you out gear the content. Most of us will start swapping out effective health gear for threat gear once we are comfortable with the knowledge that we out gear the content.

Where I will disagree is that the normal ICC 10 tank does not out gear the content, unless they have successfully killed the Lich King. Soul reaper is a step up in damage taken from anything else in the instance, and is something that you need to ensure you can survive. While we can discuss the necessity of cool down rotations and their ability to let you use less gear to beat the encounter, the fact of the matter still remains that you need a significant upgrade in gear from say festergut on 10 man to Lich King on 10 man.

However there is a point, which most end game tanks will establish, where you out gear the fight and will start trading effective health for threat or avoidance. With the 5% buff soon to become 10%, we are fast approaching that mark. The buff alone will help you out gear the fight when you technically do not.
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Re: Defining Maintanka-Levels for Gear/Gems/Enchants

Postby yappo » Sun Mar 21, 2010 3:47 pm

Wrathy wrote:Where I will disagree is that the normal ICC 10 tank does not out gear the content, unless they have successfully killed the Lich King. Soul reaper is a step up in damage taken from anything else in the instance, and is something that you need to ensure you can survive. While we can discuss the necessity of cool down rotations and their ability to let you use less gear to beat the encounter, the fact of the matter still remains that you need a significant upgrade in gear from say festergut on 10 man to Lich King on 10 man.

However there is a point, which most end game tanks will establish, where you out gear the fight and will start trading effective health for threat or avoidance. With the 5% buff soon to become 10%, we are fast approaching that mark. The buff alone will help you out gear the fight when you technically do not.


Then I think we're in agreement. Let me elaborate.

The normalmode ICC 10 tank who has seen LK down is, as far as I'm concerned, upgraded to a hardmode ICC 10 tank. He or she may not be aware of it, but from the moment hardmodes unlock, then hardmodes ARE progression content. If we assume that the tank in question IS indeed aware of this, then he or she should gear accordingly DURING the LK normal mode fight.

Thus the 'average' normal mode ICC 10 tank, again my very personal opinion, is further progressed than I am, but still slugging through ICC 10 and wiping weekly at 8/12 or 9/12, or wherever the raid falls apart due to lack of coordiantion, lack of rdps, lack of raidhealing or lack of not standing in strangely coloured shit, but NOT tank-death.

My version of the 'average' ICC 10 tank also raids 3/12 or 4/12 ICC 25, or at the very least VoA 25 on a regulary basis. Hence said tank (unless recently dinged 80) could be expected to be geared ilevel 264 gloves, belt, boots, legs, one ring, one trinket, chest and back. He or she should have a mix of 245 and 251 ring, trinket, libram, shield, weapon, wrist, shoulders, neck and head. As far as I'm concerned that IS outgearing ICC 10 normal mode.

As you pointed out, 5% overall bonus will soon become 10%, which (correct me if I'm wrong) somewhat corresponds to the difference between content-gear-levels. Eg, overall 232 becoming overall 245, or overall 251 becoming overall 264. This should make the tank even more unkillable, but will, of course, help very little with raiders standing in strangely coloured shit. After all, bring ICC 25 geared people to Naxx and watch them run like headless chickens on Thaddius, and they WILL wipe.
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Re: Defining Maintanka-Levels for Gear/Gems/Enchants

Postby lucem » Sun Mar 21, 2010 8:08 pm

could you be more specific as to when you believe a tank starts to outgear ICC 10. It is not that i'm doubting you at all, but id like to understand your concept a bit better. Im an early ICC tank, 40k health 30k armour and i dont think i outgear the instance at all.
Ive had plenty of tank deaths in festergut, but thats all i can say. My guildies are my mates but it is not geared to go too far beyong in icc and the pugs ive been only care about the first wing, so i have no experience beyond. Nonetheless i dont find myself to be much worse geared than the normal and perhaps a bit above the normal icc tank.
So what im trying to say is, can you elaborate you concept and maybe bring out some numbers into this discussion. thx
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Re: Defining Maintanka-Levels for Gear/Gems/Enchants

Postby yappo » Mon Mar 22, 2010 6:44 am

lucem wrote:could you be more specific as to when you believe a tank starts to outgear ICC 10. It is not that i'm doubting you at all, but id like to understand your concept a bit better. Im an early ICC tank, 40k health 30k armour and i dont think i outgear the instance at all.
Ive had plenty of tank deaths in festergut, but thats all i can say. My guildies are my mates but it is not geared to go too far beyong in icc and the pugs ive been only care about the first wing, so i have no experience beyond. Nonetheless i dont find myself to be much worse geared than the normal and perhaps a bit above the normal icc tank.
So what im trying to say is, can you elaborate you concept and maybe bring out some numbers into this discussion. thx


http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet ... l&cn=Kakad

This is my main tank. I fully expect the average ICC 10 tank to be better geared. Have a look at the incorrect enchants and gems I'm walking around with. Also look at the suboptimal talent-spec. Check out my pitiful progression through ICC. Spec will be supplemented with a 0/53/18 cookie-cutter one to replace the holy spec I haven't used since November.

Going from slot to slot you'll see that I'm geared mostly in, let's call it improved, failsafe gear.

Helmet, ilevel 245,EoT
Neck, ilevel 232, RNG hates me. I've knocked Ony 25, Twins 25 and Marrowgar 10 down enough times to at least get to lose a roll on a better neck, but no.
Shoulders, ilevel 245, EoT
Back, ilevel 264, EoF
Chest, ilevel 264, EoF
Wrist, ilevel 245, crafted
Weapon, ilevel 251, Marrow 10 drop (yay, a drop)
Shield, ilevel 251, Gunship 10 drop (yay, a drop)
Libram, ilevel 245, EoT
Trinket, ilevel 264, EoF
Trinket, ilevel 245, EoT
Ring, ilevel 264, BoE, bought off the AH
Ring, ilevel 277, Ashen Verdict exalted
Feet, ilevel 264, crafted
Legs, ilevel 264, crafted
Belt, ilevel 264, EoF
Hands, ilevel 264, EoF

So, I've been collecting a grand total of 2 (two) drops from ICC 10, which is why I fully expect the average ICC 10 tank to be better geared than I am. Still, at 33k armour and 41k health in stam/armour trinket setup I don't expect to run into anything soon inside ICC 10 that kills me before the raid has already effectively wiped, which also is exactly what happens when the pugs I join wipe. (I have a 170 stamina jug to slot in if I want another 2k health quickly).

Festergut-wipes have been from failing to meet enrange timer, 35k unbuffed co-tank too squishy for the content and raidhealer failing to keep non-tanks up, but damage inflicted on me has never been an issue. Same with Rotface, he tore the raid apart leaving me as the last man standing every wipe this far. Gemming and chanting for another 2 - 2.5k health would obviously not have changed anything.

My own gear is basically the failsafe tank taken to its extreme, padded out with two ICC 10 drops. Without any more drops I can get a marginal upgrade to shoulders and a decent one to head, but after that I'll have to rely on drops.

My argument is that the failsafe tank will in reality have a few drops to boost the gear, and should thus be perfectly fine to start tanking ICC 10. He or she is, in other words, not yet an ICC 10 tank. That should come with reaping some of the benefits from actually watching part of the content go down on a weekly basis.

Eg, I am an ICC 10 tank, arguably one who's failed to progress very far, but still. Thus my current gear could be used as a baseline for the tank who's leaving the first wing behind him/her to progress through the four easiest of the eight remaining bosses. Arguably I should tank my raid on wipe-nights on the 'end-bosses' pre-LK, but I pug 100% on a low-pop-realm and don't expect to see the coordiantion needed for that for another month or so (10 or 15 % overall buffs will help us meeting enrage-timers and allowing for sloppy raid-healing), at which time I'll be even more unkillable than I already am (compared to the content).

The main reason to gem and chant correctly would be if pugs on our realm magically started to kill Saurfang 25, in which case Fester 25 would become an issue, but that's a different topic.
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Re: Defining Maintanka-Levels for Gear/Gems/Enchants

Postby Digren » Wed Mar 24, 2010 7:25 am

Any other thoughts before I rework the numbers and propose a new set of levels?
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Re: Defining Maintanka-Levels for Gear/Gems/Enchants

Postby yappo » Wed Mar 24, 2010 9:30 am

Digren wrote:Any other thoughts before I rework the numbers and propose a new set of levels?


Only one:

How helpful would it be to have two sets of maintanka-levels? One 10-man and one 25-man, considering that we get a crapload of non-tier gear thrown after us, but on the other hand 25-man tier can be a major pain to get even for the dedicated 25-man raider.
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Re: Defining Maintanka-Levels for Gear/Gems/Enchants

Postby Digren » Sun Mar 28, 2010 12:12 pm

yappo wrote:
Digren wrote:Any other thoughts before I rework the numbers and propose a new set of levels?


Only one:

How helpful would it be to have two sets of maintanka-levels? One 10-man and one 25-man, considering that we get a crapload of non-tier gear thrown after us, but on the other hand 25-man tier can be a major pain to get even for the dedicated 25-man raider.


I guess I'm having trouble making the distinction between 10 and 25 in terms of, say, a level three raider.

About 50% of the gear is identical, as they are badge-purchased pieces. For the remaining gear, there are slight improvements for most pieces from 25, though exceptions such as a tanking weapon (where a 25 is unavailable until deep in the content) exist.

While it may be controversial, I would also argue that, just like a regular 25 raider can do 10-man PUGs at least up to Saurfang, most regular 10 raiders can do 25-man PUGs at least as deep, on occasion.

With gear virtually identical, the only differences would then be gems/enchants, glyphs, and talents. I readily admit that a 10-man raider could have a different talent set than a 25-man raider, because he or she may need to provide buffs or abilities in 10s that are covered elsewhere in 25s. Because of the tuning different with 10s (where the content is, in my unexperienced and overgeared opinion, slightly less hard), a 10-man tank might choose to glyph and talent more for threat than survivability.

It seems to me, though, that the difference between a normal 10 and a normal 25 is much smaller than the difference between a normal 25 and a heroic 25, or between a new 80 and a failsafe tank, or between a failsafe tank and an ICC main tank.
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