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Identify your Tank Level for Gear/Gems/Enchants

Get help with your character's gear

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, Sabindeus, majiben, lythac, Digren

Re: Stat requirements at stages of progress

Postby yappo » Thu Oct 22, 2009 2:59 pm

Please refer to the separate thread where I keep my 3.2.2 failsafe list rather than the list here, because I'm making corrections and eventual updates there. This for the level 2 gear.
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Re: Stat requirements at stages of progress

Postby yappo » Sun Oct 25, 2009 4:40 pm

Added Rawr data for a fictional, professionless, tank using the 3.2.2 failsafe list. Even without Triumph emblems we end up at 30k unbuffed health, 53% avoidance and 25k armour. This while still gemming for socket bonuses and maximizing item-score for enchants.

3.2k tps seems problematic, but as this is the first time I've used Rawr I'm not 100% certain the numbers can be trusted. For example, 103 block rating is translated into 46.8% block chance, which is insane.

Edit: 46.8% block has to include an assumed 100% uptime of 30% block chance.
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Re: Stat requirements at stages of progress

Postby Ragingsoul » Mon Oct 26, 2009 3:17 pm

yappo wrote:Added Rawr data for a fictional, professionless, tank using the 3.2.2 failsafe list. Even without Triumph emblems we end up at 30k unbuffed health, 53% avoidance and 25k armour. This while still gemming for socket bonuses and maximizing item-score for enchants.

3.2k tps seems problematic, but as this is the first time I've used Rawr I'm not 100% certain the numbers can be trusted. For example, 103 block rating is translated into 46.8% block chance, which is insane.

Edit: 46.8% block has to include an assumed 100% uptime of 30% block chance.


yes, if you go into options, you can see the avoidance and avoidance+ block etc is against a lvl83 boss by default, and assume you have holy shield 100% of the time, which you should. I personally don't use Rawr for threat calculation, depends too much from boss to boss, and group to group. I use it a lot through to see what my stats would be like with a certain combination of items. easy to see if my avoidance goes up, and by how much, how much hit/expertise, and hp I'm gonna get. rating buster is good to do that piece by piece, but not when completely changing my gear, like swapping emblem shoulders for Tier, and legs tier for off tier ones etc etc.
btw, 30k unbuffed seems a bit low from what you can get. depending what your objective is in the end, but people only look at hp sadly. not sure if I would gem for socket bonuses and loose a lot of hp if I wanted to join a pug to get some better gear, unless you plan tanking with a guild you currently have.

Edit:
Pushing for stamina, with gear from badges
Head: Conqueror's Aegis Faceguard
sockets: 32stam+2% armor and 15stam+10def
Neck:hard of the Crystal Forest
shoulders: Valorous Redemption Shoulderguards
sockets:15stam+10def
back:Platinum Mesh Cloak
chest:Conqueror's Aegis Breastplate
sockets: 30stam+30stam or 51stam if JC
bracers:Bracers of Dalaran's Parapets
gloves: Gauntlets of the Royal Watch
Belt: Indestructible Plate Girdle
sockets: 2x30stam (or 1 51stam if JC) 1x15stam 10 agility
Pants: Wyrmguard Legplates
sockets: 2x30stam or 1x51 if JC
Boots: Spiked Deathdealers
sockets:15stam+10 def, 1x30stam
rings: Signet of the Impregnable Fortress
Titanium Earthguard Ring
socket: 30stam
trinkets: The Black Heart Essence of Gossamer

weapon:Peacekeeper Blade
socket: 15stam+10def
shield: Titansteel Shield Wall

total stats unbuffed on character sheet against a lvl 80:
35.7k HP
25.1k armor
543def
23.87% dodge
19% parry
52.2% avoidance

203 hit rating
21.6 expertise with glyph

this gear will get you more invites if you're gonna pug Ulduar etc than a bit more avoidance, but lower hp. This is doable, with only hc and buying a few items like belt, boots, ring and shield.
Keep in mind that my gear for example set for 25men TOGC as one of the MT, only has 56.4% avoidance on character sheet (4.2% more avoidance). The Massive change from emblems gear and a progression gear is the EH, going from 35.7k to my 43.7k at the moment, and armor going from 25k to 29k in addition to the strength on it.
While tanking new content, one rule is important -- it's not about taking less damage; it's about being able to take more.
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Re: Stat requirements at stages of progress

Postby yappo » Tue Oct 27, 2009 3:54 am

Well, to begin with my numbers are for the unlucky tank. So even Peacekeper's Blade is out of reach.
To further mark the tank out according to the "need 30k hp unbuffed to tank a hc" my tank has never seen the daily hc due to being "undeargeared".

30k hp unbuffed WITHOUT proper tanking professions is pretty good. That's 120 stamina lacking from what should be a more believable situation. But hey, our tank maybe has 450 skinning and herbalism ;)

A more stamina-intensive gemming and chanting will, as you showed, add another triple digits of stamina.

Realistically the badge tank will get a few useful drops, and the 35k mark you pointed at seems attainable. At this point tanking VoA and Ony, 10 and 25 ought to be a common occurence, especially later in the week. Pugging Flame Leviathan for bracers, ring and sword also seems like a probable activity the evening before realm-reset.
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Re: Stat requirements at stages of progress

Postby Ragingsoul » Tue Oct 27, 2009 4:45 am

yappo wrote:Well, to begin with my numbers are for the unlucky tank. So even Peacekeper's Blade is out of reach.
To further mark the tank out according to the "need 30k hp unbuffed to tank a hc" my tank has never seen the daily hc due to being "undeargeared".

30k hp unbuffed WITHOUT proper tanking professions is pretty good. That's 120 stamina lacking from what should be a more believable situation. But hey, our tank maybe has 450 skinning and herbalism ;)

A more stamina-intensive gemming and chanting will, as you showed, add another triple digits of stamina.

Realistically the badge tank will get a few useful drops, and the 35k mark you pointed at seems attainable. At this point tanking VoA and Ony, 10 and 25 ought to be a common occurence, especially later in the week. Pugging Flame Leviathan for bracers, ring and sword also seems like a probable activity the evening before realm-reset.

yes, my post was taking into account 2 professions, to get 2x60 stamina and epic gems. In your example of herbalism and skinning, yeah, you're gonna have 120 less stamina, which is quite a lot. But my post was more a response to a new tank in Stage 1 or 2, wanting to get to stage 3 or 4, not Ebaying. So for me, if you're willing to run so much heroics to get all those badges, you must have a couple hours to lvl a profession too.
The gear I chose didn't take any ilvl245, so no daily hc needed, through on my server, it's pretty hard to get a group to do other dungeons than the daily those days.
peacekeeper is a drop yeah, so is EoG. might drop, might not, I selected those because they are quit easy to get, same with the sword from UP. a raid has a raid leader, and more than 1 tank, the chance to get it is smaller, also because you run those once a week, and not once a day.
While tanking new content, one rule is important -- it's not about taking less damage; it's about being able to take more.
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Re: Stat requirements at stages of progress

Postby trellian » Tue Oct 27, 2009 9:40 am

I wouldn't call maintaining block cap to be a requirement of a threat set. Offcourse it's good to have, but trading some blockrating for strength is better for threat and makes little difference overall.
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Re: Stat requirements at stages of progress

Postby lythac » Tue Oct 27, 2009 9:57 am

Ragingsoul wrote:yes, my post was taking into account 2 professions, to get 2x60 stamina and epic gems. In your example of herbalism and skinning, yeah, you're gonna have 120 less stamina, which is quite a lot. But my post was more a response to a new tank in Stage 1 or 2, wanting to get to stage 3 or 4, not Ebaying.


If we are ok with using professions then Figurine - Monarch Crab > EoG. Also Ruby Hare is guaranteed should there be no luck for EoG/Black Heart, and at +11sta more than EoG its lack of CD isn't too bad compared to the lackluster EoG proc.
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Re: Stat requirements at stages of progress

Postby Ragingsoul » Tue Oct 27, 2009 3:10 pm

Lythac wrote:
Ragingsoul wrote:yes, my post was taking into account 2 professions, to get 2x60 stamina and epic gems. In your example of herbalism and skinning, yeah, you're gonna have 120 less stamina, which is quite a lot. But my post was more a response to a new tank in Stage 1 or 2, wanting to get to stage 3 or 4, not Ebaying.


If we are ok with using professions then Figurine - Monarch Crab > EoG. Also Ruby Hare is guaranteed should there be no luck for EoG/Black Heart, and at +11sta more than EoG its lack of CD isn't too bad compared to the lackluster EoG proc.

true, but that's 1 specific profession. On the other hand, you can get 60 stamina with mining/enchanting/Blacksmith/JC which is more more versatile and common.
While tanking new content, one rule is important -- it's not about taking less damage; it's about being able to take more.
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Re: Stat requirements at stages of progress

Postby lythac » Tue Oct 27, 2009 3:37 pm

mining/enchanting/Blacksmith/JC


Hmm you get them from JC.
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Re: Stat requirements at stages of progress

Postby yappo » Wed Oct 28, 2009 2:09 am

Ragingsoul wrote:yes, my post was taking into account 2 professions, to get 2x60 stamina and epic gems. In your example of herbalism and skinning, yeah, you're gonna have 120 less stamina, which is quite a lot. But my post was more a response to a new tank in Stage 1 or 2, wanting to get to stage 3 or 4, not Ebaying. So for me, if you're willing to run so much heroics to get all those badges, you must have a couple hours to lvl a profession too.
The gear I chose didn't take any ilvl245, so no daily hc needed, through on my server, it's pretty hard to get a group to do other dungeons than the daily those days.
peacekeeper is a drop yeah, so is EoG. might drop, might not, I selected those because they are quit easy to get, same with the sword from UP. a raid has a raid leader, and more than 1 tank, the chance to get it is smaller, also because you run those once a week, and not once a day.


Yep. And I'm not really arguing with you here.
My example gives the rock-bottom data. Any "serious" tank wannabe, who's been at it for over a month (28 days played), who finds him/herself below my numbers is, well, not serious ;)

On the realistic note: Peacekeeper's Blade should have dropped during the gearing up period, because people still run ToC 5 hc for gearing up alts. EoG, however, is trickier. The instance is three bosses only with a very dirty first encounter for the "undergeared" party.

Watching /trade and LFG there's a definite tendency to avoid HoS, AN and Oculus unless it also happens to be the daily hc. Favoured instances are Gundrak, OK, UP, UK and ToC. I can only guess people avoid Nexus because it's a "long way there", and possibly because of the magic damage all over the place. Distance also disfavours CoS (which is silly because of the portal) and HoL. Why anyone should avoid DTK is beyond me, but there it is.

Large pop servers have a lot of people running Naxx 10/25 and OS 10/25, but as they demand achi and stupidly high gearscores we can assume these raids are out of reach for our gearing tank.

From personal experience (which makes it anecdotal and thus unreliable), I see a distinct quality difference between daily hc PUGs and "normal" hc-farming pugs. The main reason we get through the latter is my 2k+ dps as tank, because at least one "dps" is below the 1k score.
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Re: Stat requirements at stages of progress

Postby Digren » Wed Oct 28, 2009 10:14 am

I've made some minor updates to the initial post.

I've already found this method useful when providing advice in the other forum. In particular, after scanning through the item levels of the gear in a given player's armory, I can (for the most part) classify their level and then provide appropriate advice on their gem and enchant choices.

I'm pretty pleased with this so far. As I've mentioned, the next version of the gem and enchant guide will use these levels to tailor the advice.
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Re: Defining Maintanka-Levels for Gear/Gems/Enchants

Postby Dem » Tue Dec 08, 2009 5:03 pm

LEVEL 5/6: On Farm
The tank has cleared all current content and returns to threat talents/gemming/enchants to keep up with dps and/or increase the speed and efficiency of raids at the expense of Effective Health.
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Re: Defining Maintanka-Levels for Gear/Gems/Enchants

Postby Digren » Wed Dec 09, 2009 1:35 pm

Dem wrote:LEVEL 5/6: On Farm
The tank has cleared all current content and returns to threat talents/gemming/enchants to keep up with dps and/or increase the speed and efficiency of raids at the expense of Effective Health.

Did anyone else make this change while ToGC was on farm? Was there benefit to it? If you did make changes to increase threat, did you do so by changing the gems and enchants you use on your progression gear, or did you, say, switch in a threat trinket and libram?

Were DPS ever that close? I haven't seen the threat output of a ToGC-25 top DPS player myself, but I found no need to do this as a ToC-25 tank playing with ToC-25 and ToGC-10 totally BiS players.

Rather than cut EH on the tank to lift the threat cap, did raids try switching some healers to DPS?
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Re: Defining Maintanka-Levels for Gear/Gems/Enchants

Postby Wrathy » Wed Dec 09, 2009 4:06 pm

Digren wrote:Did anyone else make this change while ToGC was on farm? Was there benefit to it? If you did make changes to increase threat, did you do so by changing the gems and enchants you use on your progression gear, or did you, say, switch in a threat trinket and libram?

Were DPS ever that close? I haven't seen the threat output of a ToGC-25 top DPS player myself, but I found no need to do this as a ToC-25 tank playing with ToC-25 and ToGC-10 totally BiS players.

Rather than cut EH on the tank to lift the threat cap, did raids try switching some healers to DPS?

I made that change towards the end. But, If you are getting to that point, you probably are not re-gemming. I actually have a second set of gear that has more threat on it. I have a second weapon, Swap out legs, boots, cloak, neck, and different tier pieces to lean more towards the threat side.

Now that is not to say that I am not still walking around in 40k plus hp, but I am hit capped, expertise soft capped (less than my EH set actually), and I have a lot more crit, AP, and Shield block value.

As for the dps, and the need to push threat, was it necessary? No, but if I had not done that, I would be threat capping my best dps, and that is not something I am ok with. This was particularly noticeable on Icehowl, and twins. But the snap aggro at the beginning of fights (after the tricks and MD wore off) was needed to allow for my dps to go all out. I push about 1k to 2k more tps in my threat set, and from my parses, I am very diligent about my 969, so its not a tanking issue, its just that with 0-25 hit on my EH sets, I can have unlucky miss streaks and my dps can get threat capped quite quickly.
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Re: Defining Maintanka-Levels for Gear/Gems/Enchants

Postby Meloree » Wed Dec 09, 2009 4:32 pm

Digren wrote:
Dem wrote:LEVEL 5/6: On Farm
The tank has cleared all current content and returns to threat talents/gemming/enchants to keep up with dps and/or increase the speed and efficiency of raids at the expense of Effective Health.

Did anyone else make this change while ToGC was on farm? Was there benefit to it? If you did make changes to increase threat, did you do so by changing the gems and enchants you use on your progression gear, or did you, say, switch in a threat trinket and libram?

Were DPS ever that close? I haven't seen the threat output of a ToGC-25 top DPS player myself, but I found no need to do this as a ToC-25 tank playing with ToC-25 and ToGC-10 totally BiS players.

Rather than cut EH on the tank to lift the threat cap, did raids try switching some healers to DPS?


I wear threat gear in ToGC, yeah. It's not because DPS are threat-capped in my progression gear (they aren't), it's entirely because I like big numbers. I do not regem/re-enchant my progression set for it, I just swap in different gear pieces. My progression gear - my best gear - stays polished and ready for progression, even when it's mostly in the closet. It comes in handy when it comes time to perform stunts, although ToGC hasn't been really friendly for that, with limited attempts.
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