Identify your Tank Level for Gear/Gems/Enchants

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Re: Stat requirements at stages of progress

Postby Barathorn » Thu Oct 08, 2009 4:57 am

Our results pretty much tie in with yappo's model.

I think a 'Gearing a freshly dinged level 80 paladin from patch 3.2 for T8/T9 content' post would be a viable addition to the gearing consolidated sticky.

Digren and yappo [I know you started a beginers guide a while ago yappo but we never followed it up for which I apologise] if you canflesh it out between you and get something together I can include in the sticky to run alongside Eanin's Failsafe 540 Guide which probably needs an update now anyway.

I think you should include the drops from ToC 5 man on normal as it is very easy to farm.
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Re: Stat requirements at stages of progress

Postby Discus » Thu Oct 08, 2009 6:45 am

Thanks all, really useful thread and stops casuals like me getting confused about what we should be stacking/when.

I notice the posts suggest buying the craftable belt and wrists but sticking with the i200 shield. I'm saving Gold and wonder if the shield, belt or wrists would be the best investment - I can't link armoury at work but have all the i200 shields, the EoC belt and uld10 wrists (level 3 in this thread)
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Re: Stat requirements at stages of progress

Postby lythac » Thu Oct 08, 2009 6:52 am

Theres a good discussion about shields going on here - Why are shields so hard to get?. The shield is worth it but it depends on how many thousands of gold you need to pay for it.
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Re: Stat requirements at stages of progress

Postby Digren » Thu Oct 08, 2009 8:08 am

I edited in a new list of gear levels into the first post. The original text is still there for those that want to refer to it, but based on the feedback received I think the layers are less stratified than they were when I progressed through them.

I'm still not satisfied with the end-game text. Clearly there are different camps, but I see plenty of knowledgeable, skilled maintankadin talking about hit rating and expertise and strength so I can't dismiss them all because others think threat is still trivial.
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Re: Stat requirements at stages of progress

Postby yappo » Thu Oct 08, 2009 8:22 am

Barathorn wrote:
Digren and yappo [I know you started a beginers guide a while ago yappo but we never followed it up for which I apologise] if you canflesh it out between you and get something together I can include in the sticky to run alongside Eanin's Failsafe 540 Guide which probably needs an update now anyway.

I think you should include the drops from ToC 5 man on normal as it is very easy to farm.


I'll start a new thread here for this specific sandbox then. First post basically me cutting and pasting my list from this thread.
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Re: Stat requirements at stages of progress

Postby Wrathy » Thu Oct 08, 2009 8:50 am

I like what you have done with the progression descriptions. I think it is very important to stress in a guide like this that once you have hit the progression tier or "Stage" you should have multiple sets of gear to accommodate different encounters.
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Re: Stat requirements at stages of progress

Postby Ragingsoul » Wed Oct 14, 2009 4:01 am

Digren wrote:I edited in a new list of gear levels into the first post. The original text is still there for those that want to refer to it, but based on the feedback received I think the layers are less stratified than they were when I progressed through them.

I'm still not satisfied with the end-game text. Clearly there are different camps, but I see plenty of knowledgeable, skilled maintankadin talking about hit rating and expertise and strength so I can't dismiss them all because others think threat is still trivial.


there is different camps, because there is different rolls and bosses.
making sure you taunt the adds and don't get a healer killed or interput on hc, without it missing on the last boss is generally the reason behind hit rating.
Tanking twins doesn't require any taunts, and beast encounter can be done with low hit rating without any real problems.
The hit/expertise comes into discussion because T8 was for hit what T9 is now for expertise. Replacing all your 226 gear to 245 or 258 gets you low on hit, high on expertise, thus the discussion. also because T8 had choices in gear, that we don't have in T9, such as hands, and neck. T8 had BV neck, expertise neck, armor neck, and hit neck. T9 has expertise neck (10men) and armor neck (25men). T8 hands had Block Rating, hit, hard mode 25 freya avoidance one, and Tier, T9 has only Tier. etc etc.

I would say lvl 4 is still about EH and or avoidance, the same then lvl 3 was the highest, only a certain fight or role require to worry about something else. ( the same way hodir hard mode had a lot more threat concerns that the rest of the hard modes. )
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Re: Stat requirements at stages of progress

Postby Digren » Fri Oct 16, 2009 9:17 am

Ragingsoul wrote:
Digren wrote:I edited in a new list of gear levels into the first post. The original text is still there for those that want to refer to it, but based on the feedback received I think the layers are less stratified than they were when I progressed through them.

I'm still not satisfied with the end-game text. Clearly there are different camps, but I see plenty of knowledgeable, skilled maintankadin talking about hit rating and expertise and strength so I can't dismiss them all because others think threat is still trivial.


there is different camps, because there is different rolls and bosses.
making sure you taunt the adds and don't get a healer killed or interput on hc, without it missing on the last boss is generally the reason behind hit rating.
Tanking twins doesn't require any taunts, and beast encounter can be done with low hit rating without any real problems.
The hit/expertise comes into discussion because T8 was for hit what T9 is now for expertise. Replacing all your 226 gear to 245 or 258 gets you low on hit, high on expertise, thus the discussion. also because T8 had choices in gear, that we don't have in T9, such as hands, and neck. T8 had BV neck, expertise neck, armor neck, and hit neck. T9 has expertise neck (10men) and armor neck (25men). T8 hands had Block Rating, hit, hard mode 25 freya avoidance one, and Tier, T9 has only Tier. etc etc.

I would say lvl 4 is still about EH and or avoidance, the same then lvl 3 was the highest, only a certain fight or role require to worry about something else. ( the same way hodir hard mode had a lot more threat concerns that the rest of the hard modes. )

Plenty of others talk about their top-end DPS pushing high threat that requires hit rating gear and strength gems in their regular gear on regular fights to maintain a reasonable threat level.

Either a large group of maintankadins have a serious problem with 969 or some people have better DPS than others (or worse, if you consider those that might not optimize use of threat dumps) or something. Maybe I'll start recording a list of people who say their having threat problems, and some smart person can look at it in depth and see where the discrepancy lies.
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Re: Stat requirements at stages of progress

Postby yappo » Sat Oct 17, 2009 2:36 am

I've made some finishing touches to [3.2.2 failsafe gearing list], but as you can see preferred enchants and gems are still lacking.

Lacking, also, is the numerical setup for a paladin tank fully decked out in this gear.
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Re: Stat requirements at stages of progress

Postby Ragingsoul » Sat Oct 17, 2009 12:50 pm

Digren wrote:Plenty of others talk about their top-end DPS pushing high threat that requires hit rating gear and strength gems in their regular gear on regular fights to maintain a reasonable threat level.

Either a large group of maintankadins have a serious problem with 969 or some people have better DPS than others (or worse, if you consider those that might not optimize use of threat dumps) or something. Maybe I'll start recording a list of people who say their having threat problems, and some smart person can look at it in depth and see where the discrepancy lies.

True, depending on your drops, some dps might be better geared than tanks, but looking in wow heroes for a couple realms, you clearly see tanks topping the gear meter because the ratio of tanking gear droping vs dps dropping, in proportion of the tanks in raid and dps in raid, is a lot higher.
Also, Togc25 has a MASSIVE strength boost, it's quite unbelievable, and you clearly see it when running daily hc with some much lower geared dps, when the tank has almost as much AP as the melees.
If I take boss by boss, on the beast encounter, the 3rd one is the one that will maybe cause some aggro problems, as you can't attack while stunt. Lord, all the raid switch on the adds when they come, giving the MT all the time he needs to make some more threat.
Faction has no threat. Twins, a good tank can do around 4k dps, much more depending on your gear and setup. that leads to 10, 11k TPS. The raid is gonna switch targets to get the shields down anyway also gives more room for the tanks. Annub, same thing, raid has to switch on adds, and MT shouldn't have so much problems on threat.

I might just add, that we have something called AW, which is very very useful, and very powerful. On twins for example, when you know you have to save your shield wall for when the other has the shield, you can pop AW at the start, it's a really good way to get all the aggro you need, especially if a rogue can give you ToT at the same time.
I also use it on the elementals during the Lord encounter, to still have aggro then they jump to other places. Now that we have a "last stand" automatic proc, I'm not afraid to pop AW when I know I might need the extra threat, and maybe some players still don't want not to have a bubble wall at disposal for 30sec, that's something you need to trust your healers with.
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Re: Stat requirements at stages of progress

Postby Zothor » Tue Oct 20, 2009 6:17 am

Ragingsoul wrote:
Digren wrote:especially if a rogue can give you ToT at the same time.


THIS. This is, in my completely subjective opinion, the #1 distinction between tanks that say they're having no threat issues and tanks that are. Many, many people are not noticing that they're getting misdirects from their rogues. I'm actually impressed by this - the rogue community, maligned for 2 previous expansions for not bringing any raid utility, seem bound and determined to be valuable.

I highly reccomend installing Big Brother mod, or something else that shows you misdirects on screen highlighted. When I see misdirects going off I can focus more on initial positioning, spacing, and defense abilities... when I don't, I literally cannot drop a GCD. With my guild's dps, particularly our top warrior and warlocks who just rape face, even with wings and Avenger's shield sub for Holy shield in my first rotation, I still usually go 3+ 969s before I'm comfortable dropping a GCD to throw divine plea up if I didn't get to throw it up before the pull. The difference between having tricks and not having tricks is literally night and day.
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Re: Stat requirements at stages of progress

Postby Meloree » Tue Oct 20, 2009 8:08 am

Tricks on pull should be a given. I know I get tricks on almost every pull. After the first one, though, normally tricks goes to dps. An exception is northrend Beasts. The tank on the mob to be dpsed gets tricks on every transition, and the rogues tricks tanks during stuns on Icehowl. I also don't get any help on Twins, but I can pull those with Exo/HoR/AS and actually abuse our ability to snap-threat on pulls.
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Re: Stat requirements at stages of progress

Postby Zothor » Wed Oct 21, 2009 6:50 am

Meloree wrote:Tricks on pull should be a given. I know I get tricks on almost every pull. After the first one, though, normally tricks goes to dps. An exception is northrend Beasts. The tank on the mob to be dpsed gets tricks on every transition, and the rogues tricks tanks during stuns on Icehowl. I also don't get any help on Twins, but I can pull those with Exo/HoR/AS and actually abuse our ability to snap-threat on pulls.


In some 25 guilds, and especially in 10 man situations, the mere presence of a rogue isn't really a given. And as strange as it may sound (this is totally the case with a lot of the WotLK homogenization in my opinion) rogue tricks seem to be SIGNIFICANTLY superior to a hunter misdirect these days.
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Re: Stat requirements at stages of progress

Postby Meloree » Wed Oct 21, 2009 10:55 am

Zothor wrote:And as strange as it may sound (this is totally the case with a lot of the WotLK homogenization in my opinion) rogue tricks seem to be SIGNIFICANTLY superior to a hunter misdirect these days.


Tricks is massively superior to MD these days. Fixed in 3.3.
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Re: Stat requirements at stages of progress

Postby Digren » Thu Oct 22, 2009 7:47 am

I reworded the LEVEL FOUR: ToC Hard section of the first post to clarify some wording, based on the responses I've gotten to threat questions. I think the overall list is in pretty good shape now, and have started using it to better guide responses to gear check posts in the advice forum.
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