Ratanna's 3.2 TTL Best-in-Slot Guide. Hard Mode Loot Incl

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Re: Ratanna's 3.2 TTL Best-in-Slot Guide. Hard Mode Loot Incl

Postby Belloc » Tue Sep 15, 2009 11:58 am

theckhd wrote:
Ratanna wrote:i could be wrong, but i recall a blizzard blue post saying they took it out.

They have disabled it on some bosses, but not all of them. They most certainly never took it out.

For example, all of the bosses in the Northrend Beasts encounter have parry-haste enabled, but Jaraxxus does not. Neither do Patchwerk or Ignis.


Just wanted to correct this: The first Northrend Beast, Gormok, had parry-hasting disabled via hotfix (both normal and heroic).
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Re: Ratanna's 3.2 TTL Best-in-Slot Guide. Hard Mode Loot Incl

Postby Solitatis » Tue Sep 15, 2009 12:51 pm

I am not sure that the items selected in the guide has 16 (+10 form glyph) exp. rateing at all, and I know it almost has no hit rateing. My point is that this is a bad set for MAINTANKING, wich is the name of the forum.
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Re: Ratanna's 3.2 TTL Best-in-Slot Guide. Hard Mode Loot Incl

Postby Nadir » Tue Sep 15, 2009 1:35 pm

No, it's not a bad set for main tanking. From my own experience you don't need to gem for or specifically gear for threat as a Paladin in Heroic ToC. Nothing in the title of the forum implies that excess threat production is the goal.
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Re: Ratanna's 3.2 TTL Best-in-Slot Guide. Hard Mode Loot Incl

Postby Treck » Tue Sep 15, 2009 4:36 pm

No way you should need to gem or gear for threat for Heroic 25man.
Expertise doesnt become useless past 26, maybe its devalued past 26 in terms of threat, but if im not mistaken, in terms of reducing incoming attacks (acc to Theck in its usefullness) it doesnt start getting usefull untill your actually past 26 if i understand it right.
If you wanna be anywhere on your ammount of Expertise, you wanna be above 26 to start reducing Parrys, or just be as low as possible to not replace any more usefull stats, Expertise below 26 only contributes to threat and not survivability, thus just not that wanted or needed imo.
Your obviously gonna get some from gear and while it might not be the most desirable stat we want, its far from useles, nomatter how much you have.
Now, some bosses have parryhasting disabled, and maybe building a completely new set without Expertise for those might be worth it, but i really dont think its that much of a deal (even if i really do strive to be as easy to heal as possible).
Its not gonna make or break the fight prolly , and id rather be gearing for 90% of the fights instead of the rare few.
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Re: Ratanna's 3.2 TTL Best-in-Slot Guide. Hard Mode Loot Incl

Postby Salamandra » Tue Sep 15, 2009 5:09 pm

Expertise reduces parries below 26 just as much as it reduces parries above 26, it's just that above 26 it stops reducing dodges.
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Re: Ratanna's 3.2 TTL Best-in-Slot Guide. Hard Mode Loot Incl

Postby Ratanna » Tue Sep 15, 2009 9:50 pm

yeah solatitis, i have no idea what ur talking about lol.
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Re: Ratanna's 3.2 TTL Best-in-Slot Guide. Hard Mode Loot Incl

Postby Solitatis » Tue Sep 15, 2009 11:10 pm

Ok, Ratanna. Since you have no idea, what I am talking about, I am going to educate you.

First read everything in this forum: http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/forum/index.php?f=4&sid=df575de9a709756444deb062a61c050d&rb_v=viewforum

That covers everything about basic training. After that you read this post very carefully: http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/forum/index.php?f=6&t=17075&rb_v=viewtopic

After this you should have a basic idea, that Maintanking is more than just stacking EH, and avoidance, and that you actually need Hit and expertise.

Then you have a look at your guide again and see that it is lacking both, and you remake it to be useful for maintanking, and not just browse though the LOL-highest-ilevel-gear.

I agree mostly with your gemming and enchanting guide, but you missing a +10 stats gem in your setup, and I would not personally use mongoose on my weapon.
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Re: Ratanna's 3.2 TTL Best-in-Slot Guide. Hard Mode Loot Incl

Postby Gaffer » Tue Sep 15, 2009 11:54 pm

Solitatis wrote:After this you should have a basic idea, that Maintanking is more than just stacking EH, and avoidance, and that you actually need Hit and expertise.


Frankly, with the way tank threat is working this expansion, especially with Paladins, all you have to do is stack EH and avoidance. Outside of a handful of encounters (original 5m Malygos, HM Hodir, and HM Vezax), threat has been a non-issue. Gearing for hit and expertise when you don't need threat offers zero gain where trading for EH and avoidance offers more survivability while still being able to maintain threat.
Last edited by Gaffer on Wed Sep 16, 2009 12:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ratanna's 3.2 TTL Best-in-Slot Guide. Hard Mode Loot Incl

Postby Barathorn » Wed Sep 16, 2009 12:04 am

Keep the discussion civil please and use examples to back up your opinions.

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Re: Ratanna's 3.2 TTL Best-in-Slot Guide. Hard Mode Loot Incl

Postby majiben » Wed Sep 16, 2009 12:37 am

Treck wrote:Expertise below 26 only contributes to threat and not survivability, thus just not that wanted or needed imo.
You're mistaken on this point, as long as parry haste is a possibility, expertise reduces avg Dtps.
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Re: Ratanna's 3.2 TTL Best-in-Slot Guide. Hard Mode Loot Incl

Postby gmf1 » Wed Sep 16, 2009 12:43 am

Expertise - reduces chance to be dodged and parried under 26, once over 26 its just parry, therefore it retains the same damage mitigation below and above 26, but the tps it provides should be worth 1/2 the value over 26 as it now only reducing parry not dodge and parry.

Yea I'm with Ratanna this guide is very similar to my bis list, never geared for threat ever, never had threat issues and am so far ahead atm don't think I ever will, even after nerf. My bis list has 0 hit and I'm not worried.

How much tps does a dead tank do? Playing with the spreadsheet even if i were to gear for the most threat gear possible, I only gained 500tps, but lost a heap of everything else. Not worth it.

If you loose agro, in the same gear lvl as your dps, you need to look at yourself not your gear as the major factor. This may change next patch, and if dps get lucky with drops and end up over gearing you.

And yea play nice, no need to talk to anyone rudely on this site, go to official forums for that :)
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Re: Ratanna's 3.2 TTL Best-in-Slot Guide. Hard Mode Loot Incl

Postby Treck » Wed Sep 16, 2009 2:45 am

majiben wrote:
Treck wrote:Expertise below 26 only contributes to threat and not survivability, thus just not that wanted or needed imo.
You're mistaken on this point, as long as parry haste is a possibility, expertise reduces avg Dtps.

Even below 26? ok, i was pretty sure it only reduced Dodges at this point, but im not sure i do understand all the mechanics fully.
Does this mean you can still see dodges above 26expertise?
And that you will see less parrys than with 0expertise?
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Re: Ratanna's 3.2 TTL Best-in-Slot Guide. Hard Mode Loot Incl

Postby Fetzie » Wed Sep 16, 2009 3:39 am

Treck wrote:
majiben wrote:
Treck wrote:Expertise below 26 only contributes to threat and not survivability, thus just not that wanted or needed imo.
You're mistaken on this point, as long as parry haste is a possibility, expertise reduces avg Dtps.

Even below 26? ok, i was pretty sure it only reduced Dodges at this point, but im not sure i do understand all the mechanics fully.
Does this mean you can still see dodges above 26expertise?
And that you will see less parrys than with 0expertise?


Expertise at any level reduces the chance for your target to dodge or parry you by the same amount, regardless of the amount of expertise you have. 26 expertise reduces the chance to be dodged or parried by 6.5%, meaning the enemy cannot dodge your attacks. It also carries with it a 6.5% reduction in parries (on average).

Stacking expertise beyond this point only serves to reduce an enemies chance to parry, which has survival and threat benefits. It would, however, also reduce the chance to be dodged IF the enemy had a buffed dodge chance that is higher than 6.5% (for example if you are levelling in cataclysm and come up against an level 84 mob at level 80, you would get dodges at 26 expertise).
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Re: Ratanna's 3.2 TTL Best-in-Slot Guide. Hard Mode Loot Incl

Postby theckhd » Wed Sep 16, 2009 8:27 am

Solitatis wrote:After this you should have a basic idea, that Maintanking is more than just stacking EH, and avoidance, and that you actually need Hit and expertise.

Except.... you don't. They're both good threat stats, but STR is generally better in MT gear sets, and the T9-level gear already comes with more expertise than you would normally ask for, as well as a higher level of STR than the T8 gear.

In practice, our threat is already a little too high, which is why we're getting a nerf. Even after the nerf we should be in good shape. Yes, some extra +hit would be nice, but it's by no means necessary. With that in mind, a BiS TTL gear set should focus more heavily on EH and surviving, which is exactly what Ratanna tends to do.

Solitatis wrote:Then you have a look at your guide again and see that it is lacking both, and you remake it to be useful for maintanking, and not just browse though the LOL-highest-ilevel-gear.

I agree mostly with your gemming and enchanting guide, but you missing a +10 stats gem in your setup, and I would not personally use mongoose on my weapon.

While Ratanna and I don't always agree on the details, I think he's pretty close with his choices this time around. I can only think of one or two swaps I'd make, and those are really more preference-based things.

The Nightmare tear issue was already discussed here and here. It's really not worth it compared to a 10 agi / 15 Stam gem, and it's demonstrably a TTL decrease compared to either a purple or blue gem.

Mongoose is sort of a toss-up. It's a decent avoidance enchant, though Blade Ward might be slightly better nowadays; I haven't looked at enough parses to say one way or another. Your only other options here are threat (Accuracy) and pseudo-EH (Blood Draining), making Mongoose a reasonable choice. I prefer Blood Draining, but I wouldn't say there's a clear winner there.

The only things I would personally mess around with is a few enchants/gems. Given his other enchant choices (18 to shield, for example), I'd make changes to min/max my total stamina and avoidance based on the opportunity cost list we came up with in that thread:
Meloree wrote:Alternatively, if you're "partially" stacking stam, then the "correct order" would be:
Enchant health to chest
Skip avoidance socket bonuses picked up with a yellow gem
Skip avoidance bonuses picked up with a red gem
Skip 6 stam socket bonuses picked up a yellow gem, enchant 18 stam to shield
PVP Shoulder enchant
18 stam to glvoes over agility, Skip 6 stam socket bonuses picked up with a red gem
Skip 9 stam bonuses picked up with a yellow gem
Skip 9 stam bonuses picked up with a red gem.


Since he's taken the 18 stam shield enchant, I'd also suggest swapping to the Health chest enchant instead of 10 stats, skipping the avoidance bonus in Sabatons of the Lingering Vortex, and skipping the socket bonus of Legguards of Feverish Dedication (258 version) entirely (it's a 12-stam bonus, but it costs two gems instead of one - the yellow slot is effectively a 3 stam bonus for the extra gem, or effectively a 6 stam bonus for each of the two gems). Keep the bonus in the 245 version though.

By the way, totaling it up, his gear set (ignoring heroic 25 drops) has 150 expertise rating (43 shoulder, 38 cloak, 69 from legs), or roughly 18 expertise skill. Not great, but still enough to put you solidly past the dodge soft-cap.
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Re: Ratanna's 3.2 TTL Best-in-Slot Guide. Hard Mode Loot Incl

Postby Ratanna » Wed Sep 16, 2009 9:46 am

Solitatis wrote:After this you should have a basic idea, that Maintanking is more than just stacking EH, and avoidance, and that you actually need Hit and expertise.


i disagree. I've tanked up to hardmode anub'arak 25 man just fine with my setup and 34 hit rating. Check http://www.wowmeteronline.com/rank/claz ... /8/0/1/320

or

http://www.wowmeteronline.com/rank/claz ... /8/0/3/320

if you think i have TPS problems.

Solitatis wrote:Then you have a look at your guide again and see that it is lacking both, and you remake it to be useful for maintanking, and not just browse though the LOL-highest-ilevel-gear.


its actually not lacking both. It only lacks hit. Atm I have 39 expertise (with SoV) glyph. so this statement makes me wonder what ur talking about. And I would gladly trade my insane expertise atm for some more avoidance or health. Its just the gear that is available.

Solitatis wrote:I agree mostly with your gemming and enchanting guide, but you missing a +10 stats gem in your setup, and I would not personally use mongoose on my weapon.


http://www.wowarmory.com/character-shee ... &n=Ratanna
check my helm in the armory. that is all
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